Working Girl
Join us on Working Girl, as we dive deep into the complexities of gender bias in the workplace. Each week, we'll bring you candid conversations with real women sharing their experiences and strategic insights from experts who have been in the trenches.
Whether you’re a fierce feminist already clued into how gender inequality can shove a wrench in your career, or you’re only just starting to spot how those sneaky gender inequality hurdles have been tripping you up, this show offers the validation, support, and tactics you need to help you reclaim your career.
Working Girl
Season 1 (OLD FORMAT) - Negotiating Your Worth with Keri-Lynne Shaw
This episode is part of our first season, which focused on gender bias in the corporate world. The show has since evolved to focus on women on the front lines of social justice.
Ready to become a stronger negotiator and break free from gender bias? In our season finale of Working Girl, we're thrilled to chat with Keri-Lynne Shaw, Founder of The Salary Bump. KL shares her inspiring journey from a high-pressure career to empowering women like you to confidently advocate for your worth.
In this episode, we dive into the art of negotiation, making it feel like a win-win and normalizing those tricky money conversations at work. KL offers priceless insights on proposing salary ranges that fit both market value and your personal goals, while also negotiating for perks beyond just salary.
We'll tackle the challenges women face due to historical biases and stereotypes, giving you practical strategies to overcome them. From using HR as an ally to staying on top of market trends and building a fact-based approach to negotiations, KL's tips are a game-changer. We also explore how societal expectations have painted women as poor negotiators and share ways to shift that mindset. With personal stories and professional advice, this episode gives you the tools to confidently stand up for your true value.
But we don’t stop at salary. We’ll look at the whole compensation package, from benefits and PTO to personal coaching and memberships. Transparency and preparation are key themes, and we’ll discuss the financial perks of job-hopping versus sticking with one company
Join us as we create a community of empowered women, ready to redefine success on their own terms.
If you loved this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with your fellow working women!
Welcome to Working Girl, your safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace. I'm your host, rachel Impala, aka the Gender Bias Coach. I've witnessed firsthand the insidious effects of gender bias on women's careers. What's worse, no one is talking about it. That's why my mission is to end the stigma surrounding these conversations and to create a culture of openness and empowerment. It's time for women to stop shouldering these burdens alone and start receiving the validation and support they deserve. So sit back, relax and welcome to the ultimate support group for working women.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to another episode of Working Girl. Not only is this another episode, it's actually our season finale, which is crazy. We have heard from so many incredible women, both anonymous and experts, who have shared incredible stories of challenges and triumphs, with also tons of techniques and strategies you can use, and I really feel so excited that we will be closing out the season with a true icon, expert, just all around, amazing woman. This guest is revolutionizing how we understand and claim our worth in the workplace. Joining us is Carrie Lynn Shaw, founder of the Salary Bump.
Speaker 1:Her journey is one that so many of us can relate to. Like a lot of us, she did not always know her worth. She had to navigate the tricky waters of job offers and negotiations with a lot of the same fears and hesitations that we all face, but she turned that experience into a powerful mission, which was to help you unlock your full compensation potential, and I would argue that that would also help so many women overcome a lot of those gender bias barriers that they face in their careers. So we're going to break down the art of negotiation. We're going to tackle those barriers that are holding us back and learn how to confidently ask for what we're worth.
Speaker 1:So get ready to transform your approach to job offers and negotiations. Welcome.
Speaker 2:KL. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here, I'm so thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1:Is there anything I left out? Do you want to tell us a little bit more about your background and what got you to this point?
Speaker 2:So, so helpful. Actually, as a a kickoff to your point, I did not always know my worth. What I did know was sales, and so I started my career in sales and I measured my worth based on the commission. So I actually didn't even think about negotiation or salary as my main driver, because I was betting on me and I was always really good at sales, and so I was successful financially. If you want to consider that as a success, I was basing it on how much I sold and that worked against me.
Speaker 2:When I came into an environment where I wasn't commission based because I didn't actually know I could negotiate, like most people If I did know I didn't know how to negotiate and I just was so excited about the opportunity that I didn't want them to potentially pull the offer from me or consider me greedy or something inappropriate that would cause them to pause, like this for me was I'm excited about all of these opportunities, so pay me what you want to pay me, I'll show you the money and then let's talk. And I'm not unique. This is statistically proven. It is what everyone is facing and the reason why many of us are not negotiating, and so I'm super excited to start to change that conversation and put this conversation on the map and help people understand that there is no reason why we should be looking at negotiations as negative.
Speaker 2:Setting up a negotiation or having a hard conversation however you want to frame it is walking in with a win-win. So in a job offer, let me give you an example. So I'm offering you a job, I already want you, so I want you, you want me. So let's make this a win-win and let's make this work for everyone, so everyone feels valued and really good about us moving forward and so changing the conversation and flipping it to be something that's really more positive than oh gosh, it's an ugly conversation, filthy, rich or terrible limiting beliefs that are holding us back. It's time to stop that. And then I would add one last thing, which is starting to normalize the conversation around money. We have been taught at a very early stage in our careers and we're not supposed to talk about our salaries with our colleagues. Limited companies have pay transparency. There are any pay transparency laws that exist in the eight states that exist today. Those aren't pay transparency.
Speaker 2:That's a company that is putting up whatever they want to put up. It's not studied, it's not based on market value, it's based on whatever the company wants to put up, and some of them are ridiculous ranges. So pay transparency means so much more, and there are companies that also have it in their handbook that you're not allowed to talk about your salary. So this taboo approach has to stop so that we can actually help people really realize and understand the leveling and where we are and where we need to get to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and you touched on something so interesting and something that I can definitely relate to. I think early in my career I just wanted to get my foot in the door. I was willing to do whatever it took, and I don't think I realized that that meant sacrificing my own worth. And something I often tell my clients is whether you're in a job interview or negotiation or you are in a performance evaluation, it is not the company that has all the power. It is very much 50-50. You both are bringing something to the table that the other needs, and when we forget that or don't realize that, we are forfeiting a lot of our own value because we feel like we're the ones having to over-deliver when working is a contract and it's important that both sides know the value of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love how you said that. I really coach my clients to think about how can they get in the driver's seat. So even a performance conversation you could actually play a bigger role. Even the 50% and a lot of that are the things that hold people back. So helping you get in the driver's seat for every aspect of your career is exactly what we do together, both of us with our clients and especially about negotiation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. So. I know you don't exclusively work with women, but given that our audience is all working women, I would love to talk about the intersection of gender bias and negotiation, and I would love to hear from you how you think gender bias impacts negotiation outcomes for women, especially when it comes to that pay or career.
Speaker 2:So I think there's two key things that are happening. One, it's been told to us for decades that women are poor negotiators. It's something that I believed for a really long time. And then the second thing is women are not posting for roles. They're not applying for roles unless they hit a very high percentage of the job description. I wouldn't say it's 100%, but most women will not apply if they don't hit all the objectives. Men will, and look the statistics are still very poor, even for men. 50% of people are negotiating. That's it less than and that's men and women. There's only 34% of women that are negotiating. So there's a bigger gap and is the bias. So there's a lot of reasons for that, but the biggest one that has always come up is that women are terrible negotiators. And women are just maybe they don't have the confidence or they're told they aren't supposed to. They're supposed to just be appreciative and show gratitude, and so some of these biases are what are really getting in in all of our ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I imagine it doesn't help that women weren't even allowed in the room or at the table for so long to even have the conversation in the first place. I mean, if it's a situation where we're in a corporate world that was built by men for men, I think when women first started entering the arena, we were meant to just be grateful to even be there, to even be shown in the door, and then from there it was like trying to just prove that we could be more than the support roles, and then, when it was time for women to really start advocating for themselves, it was like well, we already let you in, you know? Why do we have to take you seriously? And fortunately, obviously women have become a lot more vocal and empowered as a group in society, and pushing back Some of my favorite women's history is actually about all of the movements in the 60s and 70s where women were fighting for equal pay, and I think I would encourage anyone actually to go back and look at that period of time, because there are some really iconic stories of amazing women who did amazing things to fight for equal pay for women, and I think it's important to know who had to fight before you so that you could even be where you are now.
Speaker 1:That said, you kind of touched on this a little bit. I'd love to hear a little more about what other kind of stereotypes or biases you think are affecting women during these types of conversations. And this could be stereotypes and biases maybe the men have, or even women may have, against them or as women ourselves, when we're the ones trying to negotiate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it can be stereotypes or biases, or it can just be we get in our own way stereotypes or biases, or it can just be we get in our own way. So we can look at history, we can try to uncover what the reasons are, but at the end of the day, in my opinion, it comes down to each individual to ask yourself what is getting in your way, why are you not asking, and what is it going to take for you to actually put that thought together on what building a proper win-win conversation looks like? So I think the biggest one that has always come up for me, as I said, is that women are terrible negotiators. So if you believe that you're not going to walk through the door and I mean look, you can look at countries like Iceland who are still fighting for equal pay.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of aspects of where are the men in these conversations, where are our allies and how do you partner with people who are actually going to help you and start to change the conversation. So I'm a big get in the driver's seat kind of person and kind of thought leader and the best thing that we can do is we can talk about the bias. We can look at that, we can look at history, or we can say no, what am I going to do about it? What can I control? And this is what this looks like for me, and this is what getting in the driver's seat looks like for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, speaking of getting in the driver's seat, let's segue to what those strategies and tactics look like, especially for women who are wanting to confidently advocate for their worth and recognition, and I mean, I am a fractional HR leader, so I've spent a lot of years as a CHRO and if you don't have great HR that is breaking down and creating transparency around pay, you actually should be asking. So use HR as your ally would be one important factor to really understand where do you fall in the benchmark around the rest of the organization and around people at your level, and start to open that dialogue. I also highly recommend that everyone, anytime recruiters call you, always pick up that call so you can get an idea of what's happening in the market. There's tons of resources online, pay scale glass door. There's a million resources that we can link in the show notes, actually happy to share those, for you to start doing your research on what your role is worth, because the only thing you know is what you know.
Speaker 2:So if you're making $100,000 a year, you have zero clue if that's appropriate or not appropriate. So when you're thinking about going in for a pay bump with your manager or promotion or a new job, you're like, wow, I'd be happy with $125,000. That'd be a nice pay bump, but the role is actually worth $175,000 or $200,000. You're completely pricing yourself out of the game. So doing your homework is super important, normalizing the conversation, talking with your friends about what they make, what director level or VPs make in your company. Can you give me an idea on ranges? So getting your footing?
Speaker 2:on what the roles are, what's happening out in the marketplace, because I'm a big fact person. If you lead with facts, it's so much easier for you to come in with a little bit more confidence. Creating a win-win is another big element. But before we get to any of that, what I do with my clients is really help them understand what their limiting beliefs are around money. Do they believe in sayings? Is there a greed element? Is there a scarcity element? How do we get people from scarcity to abundance and really understanding where is the filthy rich or money doesn't grow on trees. Therefore, there's not enough to go around Helping them to release some of those limiting beliefs also and reframe. That is another big, important element of you walking in confidently. So, working on the limiting beliefs, talking to your network, doing your homework and then really understanding, okay, how am I going to show up, what is the energy that I want to bring? And when I'm talking about the elements, the one big piece of advice that I always give every client is you never, ever, give a dollar amount when a recruiter, when a company, asks you what your salary expectations are, because if you give a dollar amount, you've automatically backed yourself into a corner, and I always recommend and I'm sure you do this with your clients as well you don't want to be the first person to put that on the table, even though you've done all your market research. So if you have to, you can. And if it's not one of the eight states that already lists the pay range, I think it's important to go back and say listen, we're just meeting, appreciate you having this conversation with me. I think it's a little early to talk about what my expectations are until I understand more about the role. Would you be okay to share what the budgeted range is for the role? I've done my market research and my homework. I'd love to see how that matches. That way it kind of puts you off of the hot seat in that conversation. And then, if you have to, then obviously you've done your homework, but never, ever go into a first conversation without having done your homework and really understanding what the range is and where you want to be in that range.
Speaker 2:And then the last tactic that is really important. So let's say we're talking $100,000 example, we do the homework and the role is actually worth $125,000 to $200,000. And you say, ok, kale, this is the number that really resonates and feels really good for me, like I would be really happy with, is 150. Then the range you give is 150 to 225, so the number you'd be happy with is the lowest number that you're going to put on the table. Of course we want you to land on the mid to high end of that range and how you have that dialogue throughout the conversation we coach on that, but really establishing that upfront, understanding it and then showing them why they can't live without you. So when you get to the negotiation it's a totally different conversation because again, they want you.
Speaker 2:I'm going to add one last piece is don't forget that there is a million different levers to pull in negotiation. That's far beyond just salary. So salary bonus benefits no one of all the people that I've made offers to in my career, not one person ever asked me about the healthcare benefits and that is cost of benefit. That is what's included in benefits. Really really important to ask those things. Well-being, work flexibility, home office stipends, cars, fuel, transportation the list is so long.
Speaker 2:And when you get a job offer they only offer you a few things. One is salary, two might be bonus and three is PTO, and that's usually the only thing that's listed on your offer letter. Of course, company benefits, but not in detail. And so these, this long list of things evaluating what's important to you to put on the table personal development, what is that? You can negotiate all of the above as well as assign a bonus. And then, last but not least, severance. I highly encourage that you always include, especially in this market. It's probably more relevant director level and above that it would get included, but for sure on the executive level side, you always want to include severance in your offer letter. You know a fair number to start with, director VP would be a minimum of six months. C-suite I would always recommend six months to a year.
Speaker 1:That's very insightful, you know. Your last point I actually learned on my own because I would often try to negotiate. I wouldn't really get anywhere and so I thought, well, they won't budge on the money, they have to be willing to budge on other things. So I would negotiate for the very things you talked about additional PTO or benefits package Although I had never thought about severance. That's brilliant.
Speaker 1:I did think of a question actually that is applicable to something I went through early in my career is applicable to something I went through early in my career you brought up doing your homework to see what the value is for the role, for what you're bringing to the table, so that when you go into this conversation you're prepared with facts. There was one time early in my career I was inkling for a promotion and I had done all the research you spoke about, and when I was pulled into a meeting I was informed we are going to give you the promotion. You know, congratulations, we're so excited to have you take on this new role. And then I was shown the number. I was quite disappointed and so I kind of countered with here's all the information I have, the facts I've found where I think my value lies.
Speaker 1:And when my manager took it back to HR, hr then came back to me and basically said well, we appreciate wherever you researched, but we use our own program Us identify the exact, perfect salary for any role and perhaps you just didn't have enough criteria in your research or whatever. They basically were kind of negating anything I had found and said that whatever they were finding in their HR program was the true, correct baseline of where salaries should be. And obviously it was very defeating because I felt like I had done my research on the very platforms you were talking about. And then here they're telling me they have some sort of like arbitrary program that is better than whatever I found and it left me with no wiggle room. So I'm curious what your thoughts on that are and what our listeners could do if they ever do get some sort of pushback on the research they've found.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So look, there is no absolute silver bullet that HR or any organization has. That is a perfect system, and we can't forget that you also need to fit into the benchmark of where other people are. So there are subjective in a way, but you may or may not at that point have been higher than other people at the level that you were coming into. You might've done a better job negotiating in the first instance and therefore there was less room for them to give you in that level.
Speaker 2:I'm always just such a big believer in as much transparency as possible so that they the employee, you in this case feels like wow, okay, they explained to me in more detail how they came up with their number and how I fit in. So if they had said to you listen, rachel, we are so thrilled that you're growing within the organization. Let us walk you through what financial growth looks like here and when you're bringing in your external research, which we value and appreciate very much, we also do external research. What the external research does not do, however, rachel, is factor in the total compensation package, and so this is the percentile that we as a company are focused on 50 percentile, 67th percentile, and here's why. Here's how that fits into our company values. But where we then are stronger than a lot of our competitive set is our equity levels, our benefits programs. So we've done the research and this is how our total comp picture comes together. So I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:I worked for an organization huge organization for 12 years. They had what people would call golden handcuffs. Very few people ever left the organization.
Speaker 2:And part of the reason for that was they didn't have the highest salaries, but they had such incredible benefits, including pension, which you never see in today's world or in ria. They had a company car and you could tap into a couple like a lease car plus a car plus fuel. They had such incredible additional benefits that when you wrapped the whole total picture, it gave you a different perspective on what your compensation looked like. So say you were disappointed. It doesn't sound like they did that for you. It doesn't sound like they shared with you what your trajectory now looks like. And while this might be the level that we were able to give you today, here's what it could look like in the next few years. And that's the part that HR gets really wrong, and the leaders frankly. So your boss should have also been able to articulate that for you. If he had a great HR business partner helping him. That was a real, a real miss on their part, because you may not get everything you want. Unfortunately, this is reality. You get to say yes or no to that opportunity, and your research is your research and there's this theirs, and you know it's somewhere in between is where we can come together. But if I were in your shoes during that time, I would have let my boss know that this isn't the most inspiring the opportunity is incredibly inspiring, but the salary offer is not and that I would like to see what my trajectory looks like. When will we revisit my salary and what, then, is a path forward so that I can feel like at least I'm being heard?
Speaker 2:Let's talk about some of the other ancillary benefits. I want you to pay for my chief membership. Would that be something that you could do? I would like for you to pay for personal coaching, because you know, jumping into this now leadership role, there's additional things that I would like to be the most effective I can be, and are you open to some of these factors? Many companies will be open to those things because they don't fall into the same category as the personnel bucket, which is the biggest bucket on the P&L statement. So those other ancillary things are really easy for them to throw in, really easy and in most cases, if you bring your case, you can get those things, and hopefully that gives you a little bit more excitement about taking on the role, because you at least were able to add in a few things.
Speaker 1:Now that's incredibly insightful and, I imagine, really for any woman at any point in their career, but, I think, incredibly helpful for women just starting out, because I would have never thought that I would be negotiating more than my salary. It was always salary and that was it. And thinking of it instead of salary, but instead as compensation package, I think just also provides a lot more depth to the role and the value the company sees in you, which I think can only, in turn, then help women understand that it's not about just a number that applies to their value. There's so much more that can show how the company values them that can be negotiated, which I really love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's something I think again, you're generally so excited that you just got the offer that you're like, oh wow, I got a raise, super, and so you're already happy. It's more than I'm making now, so it's good. But the reality is there's so much more that you can add to the table, and you should absolutely add all of those things to the table at the appropriate time. So I will note that you don't ask for all this stuff before they already want you, right? So you come into your conversation with great energy, with a smile, with a positive feeling about where we're going and with gratitude, and then you get down to business. I'm like all right, so let's talk about this.
Speaker 2:There was a time in my career where I was able to double my salary twice Once jumping to a new job which, by the way, people who job jump will make about 55% more than people who stay loyal to a company and that's not to say you should leave your job that you're happy with and that you're loyal to. And then, another time, I was able to double it in an existing role. So what I recognized as an HR leader? I spent most of my career in sales and marketing, so I had no idea if my salary was appropriate or not.
Speaker 2:When I got to HR, I recognized how grossly inappropriate it was.
Speaker 2:When I got to HR, I recognized how grossly inappropriate it was and if I wasn't working for a company that had really strong structures and salary bands and pay transparency, it was all over the place. And I've walked into situations where it was all over the place and the first thing I do is an equity analysis and see where everybody stands at every level in all different kinds of pay groups, because the most important thing we can do is get that right from the get-go and the last thing we want people to do is feel undervalued, and it's actually one of the biggest reasons why people leave organizations is because they don't feel valued, and a big part of that is the financial element, and companies could win at this so easily if they actually just focused on creating transparency and having a compensation philosophy inside the organization to help people really understand what does their career trajectory look like here, including the financial elements, and why do these things matter to us? It's not as complicated and it's so unfortunate that most companies just don't see it as a priority.
Speaker 1:No, definitely. I certainly felt that throughout my career. I think there are companies who are starting to do a much better job of it, especially because I think company and corporate issues are becoming a lot more visible on social media, and so I think that level of accountability is playing a huge role and dynamic in the way companies are now treating the people who work for them, which I personally think is good.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. You mentioned about not feeling valued. I was just curious how did your boss respond? You told him you didn't feel valued or hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah he, actually it was interesting. It was one of those conversations where he yeah he, actually it was interesting. It was one of those conversations where he on the down low was like I don't really agree with how they're doing it. I'm sorry, I wish they were giving you more information or were giving you more pay and he was like it's out of my hands. I've tried to fight for it and I've seen that throughout my career as well and with other people. I know where managers kind of will try to fight the good fight and back their people up in those experiences or circumstances. But you know, you can only get so far sometimes with HR.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Again, because I like to think I created a more modern HR and an open HR. It's unfortunate that he didn't feel he could go back and actually have a proper conversation with HR and bring his data. So here's where Rachel is compared to other people at her level. Here's the people underneath her. Let's look at the whole picture here and you know another lever that you could have pulled, or he could have pulled, is a spot bonus. That could have also been something interesting, like listen, I understand where I am compared to my colleagues and that you need we need to have fair pay, but let's talk about the market research and knowing that any recruiter could call tomorrow which I'm not holding you hostage on but the market is paying this. So what can the company do to help close that gap? And here's a couple of ideas Spot bonus we talked about chief membership, we talked about some of the other things Because you need to feel valued or that next recruiter call you're out, you're done that next recruiter call you're out, you're done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think what you're saying is probably very eyeopening for a lot of listeners, because at that time, like I said, I thought the only thing on the table was the salary. I thought that was the only thing worthwhile and some of the things you just mentioned back then I didn't know were an option or even on the table. I was quite young in my career. I just thought salary is the only thing right. I thought benefits and all that, they were just kind of a given. I didn't realize how much was on the table for me to ask for or negotiate for, and I think that I mean knowledge is power, right. I think knowing how much is on the table potentially that you could negotiate changes the conversation entirely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I work with all levels of clients and I said you mentioned that I work with men and women. So two of my recent clients one was a CEO and we're talking airplane transportation negotiation the other one was an automotive technician who just received a master technician certification, which was a huge coup in that environment. The turnover rate for technicians and dealer is over 50% and so keeping master techs is something that every dealership wants. So we got him a $40,000 increase, a 40% increase, and almost most of it wasn't on the hourly rate, so, hourly worker, we got him a few dollars in the bump up in his hourly rate. Super.
Speaker 2:Then we co-created a bonus plan for him that they ended up rolling out to the entire organization. So they have many different dealers. That was super smart. Then we got him a company car insurance and gas which, by the way, was about a 1500, $1,700 out of pocket costs, so we're talking an after tax cost that he now is getting for free. So that's $1,700 in his pocket and healthcare benefits for him and his wife. We got those included as well.
Speaker 1:I mean there's only.
Speaker 2:there was only a couple of master techs in their whole dealer community, so these benefits could be shared with the other master techs and it wasn't such an extreme situation. But we got really creative and that's the fun part about it. When you know you're in the driver's seat. Let's also be real. You need to be performing, you need to be an excellent performer and you need to be getting great feedback. And you need to be very thoughtful about when you have while we're like way before the performance season, but way before they're talking about paying increases and year end, and or like after you've just completed a super successful project, something just launched, and you're getting great feedback.
Speaker 2:That's when you talk about your career trajectory and your financial growth. That goes along with that. Or if you're really intrigued with personal development, let's like. For I'll give you an example I wanted to become a professional coach was about 10 years ago. I knew it would be important for the company that I was going to be a coach. That was the head of HR and I just went, went to them and said I'd like for you to pay for this. No problem, it was $12,000, $15,000, I think it was, and of course, I took that with me when I left right. This was something that was for me. So, whatever it is that you're passionate about and you want to drive, these are things that you can put on the table anytime during the year, not even just in the actual initial negotiation.
Speaker 1:I would love to pivot a little bit to how to navigate power dynamics when you're negotiating your worth, your salary, what have you? I hear this a lot from women that they just feel like it's not an even playing field, and so they often can come into these conversations feeling very inferior and I think some of it does kind of have to do with self-worth, like you said, going back to what is their mindset around money. So I think a lot of it can be inherently personal. But I also do hear a lot of stories and experienced myself cases where there was a very unfair, unequal balance between yourself and the person you're or group you're negotiating with, and I think for women that can be especially challenging trying to kind of shake those circumstances. I'm curious what your thoughts on that are. What are maybe some of the power dynamics you see and hear about, especially for women in these conversations?
Speaker 2:So it comes back to you getting in the driver's seat and actually flipping that power dynamic back to you. So I'm a big fan of male allies and if you're advocating for yourself inside an organization, let's just use that as an example. You're negotiating your raise, having male allies that can help you understand the best way to approach this conversation. How do you negotiate when you walk in so really male it can be also men and women but within the organization, if there is that power dynamic between men and women, get information on how they've managed it successfully. You're coming into that conversation again having done your homework, having shedded the limiting beliefs, whether you work with a professional coach, whether you talk to someone in your life like no, how can I flip the script on filthy rich? How can I flip the script on money doesn't grow in trees? No, I have. Instead, of, money doesn't grow in trees, I have financial goals. I want to create generational wealth. I'm excited about creating generational wealth. I'm excited about my financial future and I'm owning my financial future. I'm not leaving my future in someone else's hands, and here's one way I can do that.
Speaker 2:So it's a lot of self-talk. It's a lot of asking questions of other people and then figuring out how to tell your story. People and then figuring out how to tell your story. If you're in a situation where you feel powerless, obviously in that situation it's a lot more difficult to pull yourself out of it. But the more homework you do, the more preparation you do. You are walking in there confident you are going to win some. You're going to lose some. There's sometimes the other person is going to win. But if you even say the words and I recommend this for my clients to say listen, if I'm looking for a promotion in my, in my existing role, like I'm excited to be here, you're always excited to have me here, because you're considering me for this role, how do we make this a win-win for both of us?
Speaker 1:I absolutely love that.
Speaker 2:And ask the question yeah, because nobody wants to feel uncomfortable, even the person who thinks that they're stronger. On the other side, they want it to be a win-win, unless, again, you're walking in and you're not performing. You really need to have the facts and the data and the value needs to be there for them to say yes. If you're just walking in saying I want to raise, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen. So I mean there's, there's. We didn't talk about all the factors that lead into that. But if you're a strong performer, I actually have a funny story that I posted on LinkedIn the other day and also on TikTok TikTok that I met a recruiter who told me that in one case so it's only one case, but it's an interesting story that a company made an offer to one of her candidates and the candidate accepted and 24 hours later the company came back to the recruiter and said we're sending the offer because they didn't negotiate.
Speaker 2:So don't underestimate the fact that you negotiating shows your confidence. So if you're joining an organization and you're coming in a sales role, you're coming in a customer service role. You're coming in a vendor relation role, where you have to negotiate with vendors. You're coming in a leadership role. The confidence factor and being able to have this conversation has to be one of the things that the company is actually looking for you to do. So they're looking to see how you show up in this conversation, which is why it's so important for you to come in with the right energy around it. It's like for me anything in life if I look at things as I use a workout as an example like, oh, there's this huge hill in front of me and I could. Oh, it's going to be so painful. It's going to be painful. It's about my perspective. It's always about the way that I look at everything, and the sooner you can flip your mindset to something more positive, confident and giving yourself the power, the sooner you're going to get the results that you want Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I am a huge believer in the power of mindset. I think mental health, mindset, the way that you're bringing yourself to the table, the way that you're looking at your day when you wake up in the morning it all has very profound impact on how you show up, not only at work but with your family, with your loved ones, friends, and it plays a way bigger role. And obviously that's like a whole other podcast episode. But I do really believe that almost all of this even in how we deal with gender bias outside of negotiation, confidence and conviction and all three of those are related to mindset. Because, yeah, to a degree you're completely limited by how the company handles things, how the men are handling things, if they're incredibly biased. But at the same side, if you're showing up half of your potential, half of yourself, you're not bringing your full self to the table with that confidence and assertiveness, then you're setting yourself up to fail.
Speaker 1:And the example you gave was actually quite funny about. I can see why, especially for certain roles, if you don't negotiate, that would be such a red flag. I mean it's very similar how, if a company is looking for someone in social media, if they don't have a red flag, I mean, it's very similar how, if a company is looking for someone in social media, if they don't have a really strong social media presence personally, the company usually doesn't believe that much in their skill set. So, like you can't even do this on your own, how are you going to come do it for us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say maybe this you know, I've worked in quite a few different organizations. I have never, ever been in an organization where a man said let's pay this person less because she's a woman. That is not front of mind for people. What I see is a lot of ignorance on the company side. It's ignorance in leaders not doing their homework. It's in leaders not putting the comp philosophy and transparency as a top priority. It's leaders just saying, okay, hr says it's this, no, like, let's have a conversation. It's leaders not doing the benchmark analysis to see the men, the women, people of color. Where is everybody in this mix? And do we? Do I in my own area have fair pay? So it's an unconscious thing, but it's also ignorance. And so for it to actually really change leaders and organizations and HR needs to do a better job in doing that analysis.
Speaker 2:And then for you as the employee which again, I'm a big believer, it's you only can focus on what you can control. So what can you control? And that is how you show up and how you treat others, full stop. There's nothing else you can control. So, but you can get in the driver's seat and walk into the conversation with armed with information to help help me understand. How do I fit in with my colleagues? How do I fit in, you know? Am I in this percentile or this percentile? Is there room for me to grow or not room for me to grow? And if they haven't ever looked at that, well then you're starting an exciting conversation to be rolled uphill right. I just think we can't wait for the ignorant people who are not maybe doing the homework start driving the conversation and do it in a thoughtful, very, very thoughtful way and start talking about what we make.
Speaker 2:I'll give you one other really quick story. I did a panel interview with a group of lawyers, mostly women, and there was maybe five men there. Super interesting. At the end of my discussion there was a cocktail hour. Two people walked up to me they were colleagues, one man, one woman and they said how timely that you're here today. And I said ah, tell me why. The woman said we were. We're just in the process of finalizing our contracts for the next year. And I said, oh, okay, let's talk about it. And the guy said to her oh, I just finalized mine. And she said, oh really. And he goes yeah, make sure you ask for this and this and this and this and this. She was like I didn't even think of asking for those things. So there was a beautiful example of a male ally number one. But having this open discussion totally changed her approach, totally changed the trajectory of how her contract was finalized. So start normalizing that.
Speaker 2:I think that's really one of the big pieces of takeaway that I hope people take away from this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and I loved how you touched on the ignorant side of things Because, to your point, I mean, I've certainly worked places where it did come out that the men were being paid more than the women, and I do think that the inherent nature of most cases of gender bias is that it's unconscious.
Speaker 1:I mean, when I do workshops, I have like multiple slides all about educating women on how unconscious bias works, how it's even possible, and I think that the points you made are really important to keep in mind because while maybe the bias side, whether it's from bias against women or another marginalized group in the company, that is something that HR and management should actively work on improving if that's an issue in their company when it ties into salaries to your point, I do think it's a lot about creating the right framework of how this is approached within the company in creating a system that holds managers and people with power accountable, because if they do have some sort of inherent unconscious bias and that's affecting how they're, you know, advocating for raises or salaries within their team, if there's the right system in place, the right framework within the company and how this is all approached, then their bias shouldn't matter. It'll hold them accountable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the framework is so critical because a lot of mistakes that I've seen coming into organizations and taking over is that they didn't have that framework. So it was all over the place, so people coming in better negotiators got more money, and so then you created all these really mismatched levels. And so again, if women are negotiating less than 34% of the time, men and women are negotiating around 50% of the time more men are negotiating.
Speaker 2:So this is one thing we need to change immediately. If more men are negotiating, of course there's going to be a greater divide. So, like you said, if there are the right processes and structures inside each organization, they won't allow it to get out of control. And when there's a negotiation, it's appropriate. There's structures and we know, like, really, what the maximum that you can go to and you can be transparent about that conversation, so then the person can take it or leave it right. So here's why this is the salary, here's the, the approach that we take, here's our comp philosophy, and it makes it much easier to then not go off the rails once you have that, if you have that framework yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, as we wrap up, I want to add in the disclaimer I already know you and your organization. You're in your business a salary bump. You guys already have big plans. You are working on really important things that are helping people come to the table with a totally new mindset and strategy around knowing their value and strategizing for their compensation. But I would love to hear a little bit and have you explain to the listeners kind of what is your vision, what is your big term goal for how you're going to change the dynamics of the negotiation world.
Speaker 2:So I started with one-on-one coaching and a digital program. So those are the two ways, because I truly believe, as I said multiple times today, that one of the best things we can do is get in the driver's seat ourselves. So empowering you to be able to have these discussions is absolutely crucial and a very big part of what I value personally in developing the company. My next approach is I'm so passionate about the gender pay gap and doing my part. I am in the process. I'm a chief people officer and I do it fractionally, so I do go into organizations and I help them.
Speaker 2:I'm in the process of developing something to get the attention of organizations on understanding why having a comp philosophy and pay transparency is crucial inside your organization, both for retention and for employee engagement, and if you asked 100 CEOs how important comp philosophy is in their priority list, I can almost guarantee you they've never even used the word.
Speaker 2:It's not a top priority. So I'm in the process of developing something that's scalable, that will be something that we can roll out to organizations in a really simple way and then getting the right attention behind it, so that companies that don't have one will be left behind. So this is a really beefy topic. I believe that, then, I'm sandwiching the approach both from the company side and the individual side so that we can do our part in closing the gender pay gap, because it's really important, and, even more than that, just empowering women. Just empowering women to know that they are worth it, that they have incredible value and they should not be sacrificing anything and leaving anything on the table, because generational wealth and financial goals these are all important. Even if money is not your number one driver, you have bills to pay and you have financial goals and things that you're working towards. Money is not my number one driver. It never has been, but that doesn't mean that I don't have goals, so that's what I'm really excited about.
Speaker 1:I love that so much and I agree, you know, money used to be my biggest ambition when it came to my career, because I grew up in poverty, so I thought that the more zeros that were in my salary, that was my indicator of success. And you know, looking back on my career, I realized that that is not my biggest driver anymore. Sure, I want a proper income, but it's because I want to be able to pay for the life that I want to build with my husband, my future family, for the things that we value, like traveling, spending time with each other, and that pivot has been really instrumental. And going back again to mindset, for me it was that shift in my values and my mindset. So I fully, fully agree with you. I'm so glad you shared that. Please tell our listeners where they can find you, how they can work with you, if they want to give us all the goodies.
Speaker 2:I love it, thank you. So I'm Keri Lynn Shaw on LinkedIn and I'm wearing a yellow blazer so you can't miss me. I get a lot of comments on it and that's actually my primary platform where I give a lot of tips and tricks and tools and do a lot of thought leadership on LinkedIn, so follow me there. I'm happy to connect with you. I'm building a beautiful community there and then everywhere else Instagram and TikTok it's thesalarybump and it's also thesalarybumpcom.
Speaker 2:You can see what I offer on my website and I also offer clarity calls for anyone who wants to jump on a call with me 15 minutes really thrilled to talk to you as best I can in that 15 minutes and see if it's a connection and if you think it would be something that you want to work further for. If not, all good, I'm really happy to give away a lot of tools that will help you be the better person that, the person you want to be, and empower you to do great things.
Speaker 1:I love it. Thank you so much and we really appreciate having you on for our season finale. You were the perfect closer. Thank you so much for being part of this week's conversation. For more information and additional resources, be sure to visit rachelandpaulacom slash podcast for the complete show notes and you know the drill. Be sure to visit rachelandpalacom slash podcast for the complete show notes and you know the drill. Make sure to subscribe, leave a review and, if you love the podcast, make sure to share it with another working woman in your life. You never know who could use the support. Thank you again for spending this time with me, rachel Impala, in this episode of Working Girl. Until next time, keep breaking barriers, shattering stereotypes and redefining success on your own terms. I'll see you soon.
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