Working Girl
Join us on Working Girl, as we dive deep into the complexities of gender bias in the workplace. Each week, we'll bring you candid conversations with real women sharing their experiences and strategic insights from experts who have been in the trenches.
Whether you’re a fierce feminist already clued into how gender inequality can shove a wrench in your career, or you’re only just starting to spot how those sneaky gender inequality hurdles have been tripping you up, this show offers the validation, support, and tactics you need to help you reclaim your career.
Working Girl
Season 1 (OLD FORMAT) - The Struggle for Respect and Validation in Beauty
This episode is part of our first season, which focused on gender bias in the corporate world. The show has since evolved to focus on women on the front lines of social justice.
We’ve talked about the experiences of working women in the corporate world, but what all of the incredible women working outside of corporate America? Join us as we welcome a seasoned makeup artist from the beauty industry who shares her eye-opening experiences with gender bias. Her story isn't just about her work; it's about overcoming resistance and judgment from others and the subtle and not-so-subtle biases from a diverse clientele that often hails from corporate backgrounds. You'll hear firsthand how ignorance fuels unconscious bias and how she's navigated this complex landscape to build a robust career.
Our guest doesn't hold back as she recounts the condescending remarks and judgment-laden comments she's faced, both from men and women alike. From intrusive questions about her finances to dismissive attitudes toward her profession's legitimacy, we explore how societal perceptions can erode self-confidence. Through candid anecdotes and personal experiences, she underscores the importance of recognizing the value of one's work despite societal underestimation and the relentless struggle for respect and validation.
We also dive deep into the broader issues of misogyny and unrealistic expectations placed on women in various professional settings. Whether it's outdated views on women's appearances affecting their capabilities or the double standards in dress codes and workplace attire, our conversation sheds light on the pervasive nature of gender-based discrimination. With a focus on creating a more equitable society, we emphasize the need for change and challenge these deeply ingrained norms. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that will leave you reflecting on the everyday realities of gender bias and the ongoing battle for equality.
If you loved this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with your fellow working women!
Welcome to Working Girl, your safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace. I'm your host, rachel Impala, aka the Gender Bias Coach. I've witnessed firsthand the insidious effects of gender bias on women's careers. What's worse, no one is talking about it. That's why my mission is to end the stigma surrounding these conversations and to create a culture of openness and empowerment. It's time for women to stop shouldering these burdens alone and start receiving the validation and support they deserve. So sit back, relax and welcome to the ultimate support group for working women.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome back to Working Girl, episode 10. I can't believe it. We are almost near the end of season one. Wow, it has been such a journey. We have heard from some amazing, incredible, fantastic women who have really been leading the charge and showing up with courage and talking about their experiences. I honestly, am just. Every night I go to sleep and I'm just so in awe that these women have trusted me with their stories that they have shared. Today is no different.
Speaker 1:I am very excited to welcome this next guest for many reasons. I already know she's going to have such an insightful conversation with me just based on our prep conversation, if you will but I think what's really going to be fascinating about her stories is that she is not in corporate America, which bless her. I can't imagine how nice that must feel sometimes, but that is such an interesting perspective that we have not heard from, and so I really cannot wait to hear about her experiences so that all of us can better understand what working women are going through outside of our own field and industry. So, that said, what did I leave out? Please give us a little intro. Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2:Well, I work right now primarily in the beauty industry and I have a background in the service industry and some retail. And I feel like it's been a journey, because each of my jobs I've, you know, now I realize, looking back, the different situations I was in and you know, I was young at some of these jobs. So I feel like now I've been able to look back and be like, oh, these situations weren't okay, you know. And now now I address myself in the beauty industry and I feel like I stand up for myself better than I did before. So, yeah, my main perspective is going to be from the beauty industry and working in that industry which, like you said, is not corporate America but a lot of my clients are, so that, you know, is where this take will kind of come from. And maybe that's, you know, even affected how people see the beauty industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's actually such a good point that I'm sure all your clients are somewhat in the corporate side of things and whatever bad behaviors they are showing and demonstrating in the corporate world, they are assuredly bringing them to your doorstep. So yeah, I hadn't even thought about it that way, but you're right, that makes you even more qualified. You're like a therapist in that way. You're like girl I've seen and heard literally at all.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, definitely For male and female, to be honest.
Speaker 1:So I actually, you know, there's a stat that nine and 10 people worldwide are biased against women, and that nine includes women. Yeah, yeah, I'm actually not surprised at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the main perspective that I get like in a negative way for my job being in the beauty industry mainly comes from women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure yeah, interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I mean you know there's a couple men here and their husbands or whoever. If I'm on site at a job and there's, you know, a photographer, whoever that's male, those things come into play. But otherwise, day, day to day clients, definitely that female perspective comes in of, like the judgment of the beauty industry, or even, I don't want to say judgment, I think like maybe lack of knowledge of it would be what I would say yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of unconscious bias boils down to ignorance because, you know, obviously bias in its nature can be very front of mind. People can be actively biased and know they are. I've certainly seen people be actively biased against my husband, who is Black, and it's very clear and evident that they are aware that they have a bias right. They wouldn't be surprised if you called them out on it. But I do think the nature of unconscious bias is that it is rooted in ignorance and just not knowing and the hope is always that, if, should they be educated, they would of course see the light, you know, and change. That's obviously not how it always works out. But you also brought up an interesting point of not only are you dealing with the clients and male and female, all from different industries and possibly corporate america, but you mentioned, like other people who, like photographers, colleagues essentially of yours that you might work with on a project. So you've got a full gamut of potential bias coming at you.
Speaker 2:And I think, like my first initial like situation with this was even just within my household. So you know, I the first time that I was like you know what? I think I want to go to beauty school, my dad was like no, like you need to go to college and get a degree and you need a job that is secure, that you get insurance and all of these things. And I remember sitting there being like, okay, maybe he's right, like who cares if I love this industry. So I did, I had put it off for a while. I did, I went to college, I did two years and I was like this isn't for me, you know. And then fast forward to today and my dad's like oh, maybe I was wrong about this. You know, because he sees one, how happy it makes me, the flexibility it gives my life, and that I can make a good living and help support my family and myself with this job, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think the beauty of that was maybe I took somebody that didn't see that and changed it. I don't know if it fully changed his perspective, but it definitely felt good, even for me, because at the time I believed it. And that's where I think that this is kind of. It makes negative impressions on our younger females especially and honestly even males in the beauty industry like people genuinely don't take it seriously and I think they have this impression that it's like, oh, you maybe couldn't get into college or school is not for you, so you just did this, you know, but that's not really how it is and it is a secure job in so many different ways. So I think that has been. That was the first negative situation. I dealt with it and it came from a man and that continued into my career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's quite literally the really touched on the entire root of bias, which is that we are all carrying this sort of inherent belief system that was drilled into us by society, by our parents, by our families, by our teachers. It starts when you're so young and you know, I've told people sometimes I'll do workshops and I'll say who here thinks they're biased, and no one will raise their hand because everyone's afraid to say and I'm like you know, I do my whole spiel and then at the end I'm like now hear who thinks they're biased, and then everyone raises their hand Like it doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you human, literally every single person is biased.
Speaker 1:The key is when you realize it, you change it, that's all.
Speaker 2:I even had to do that myself, like a couple years in. You know, even being in this industry, I had to like catch myself of sometimes like agreeing with if somebody was saying it to me like, oh, this is a cute little side job for a mom, like I remember people saying that, you know I was like, yeah, no, it's been great for me to raise my kids and have this. And then I was like, oh, like I'm running a business, you know, and I'm gonna make it seem smaller just to not appease the client. But I feel like in the beginning I kind of agreed with them, which was terrible, you know. And now I'm like, okay, wait, like I have my kids being, you know, saying comments like, oh, we're so proud of you, you know, when I book up an exciting client for myself, and they're like wow, mom, you should be so proud of yourself. That's awesome, you know.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, why did I ever consider this just some small little gig, you know? So, yeah, I had unlearned a lot of that myself. So that's why I try not to get angry when people make comments. I like to more. I hit them with the facts after that and in a very nice way, right, like I'm like oh, actually I do this full time, or actually this is how I support my family. You know I try to like this is my. I support my family. You know I try to like this is my job, like you go to job, your job, you know. So, yeah, I try and not let it get to me in that way, because I do think there's just too many people that have no knowledge on the industry, like we said, which is kind of everywhere. You know. So, but yeah, that's been a huge part of it.
Speaker 1:I totally get it. I regularly have to check myself on. I consider myself a raging feminist and I regularly have to check myself on like misogynistic tropes in my mind. You know even how I show up as a wife and in my home and, yeah, it's challenging, but I digress because we have gotten so ahead of ourselves. Let's back up Speaking of school. Yes, I know, probably like every guest on the podcast so far, including myself, you didn't get any formal training on how to deal with gender bias when you started your career. I know that's so shocking.
Speaker 1:That's so shocking that no one who you didn't go to gender bias university. I'm shook and shocked, Right. So walk us through what that experience was like, just starting out not really knowing what to expect in that area.
Speaker 2:I feel like I honestly didn't think it was going to be an issue, because I remember just thinking I'm entering into an industry that is mainly female dominated, and I just remember thinking. Honestly, I don't even remember thinking about it at all until I got into situations which, I kid you, not a lot of. So when I started, I mainly did bridal. So when I would be going to these bookings obviously this is a room full of women A lot of times the dad of the bride is there, you know. So I remember going in and bringing all my stuff in and I'm not joking every single wedding. Oh, wow, you take this really seriously. Wow, look at all of this stuff. Like that's a lot. Oh, you know, like, so those comments would be made. Or you know? So I just remember thinking like, does this happen to a doctor when they, like, are in their office and they're pulling things out, is it? Wow, you take this seriously? Like and I'm not comparing the two careers, you know, obviously they're very different, but, yes, I take this seriously Like this is, like I said, my job also sanitizing like all half of these things are to keep people safe in between applications.
Speaker 2:And I remember thinking like, do they just think, like I had people ask me like, oh, do you use any of this on yourself? And I'm like, well, no, this is like my professional you know kit, these are my tools. So, no, I'm not, you know, and I think those little questions fine. But then it would get into like, so what's your real job? And I'm like, oh, oh, no, I, this is my real job, I do this full time. And they're like, oh, like, confused. I'm like, well, so then what does your husband do? And I'm like, oh, so they were, you know, trying to figure out like, how do I live life? There's no way that I could do this right as a job that you know feeds my family or helps take care of myself.
Speaker 2:And so that's when I realized, okay, people don't really view this as a real job, you know, and I had a lot of friends that were in the industry and they would tell me the same thing that people would, you know, maybe not value their time because of the industry that we're in. And I noticed that would come up a lot, or I would have, like any of them, the men like any, like I brought up one time I was on set and I had a photographer come up to me and he was like, oh, you know, is there any way you can do this quicker, because I need them, you know, at this time, this time? And I'm like, oh, actually, like my set says I have them till this time. And he'd be like, oh well, this isn't hard, can you just slap something on her and send her over?
Speaker 1:And I was like, actually, like, so, even that of like their job, right, they have to set up there's a whole process, but mine it's not a big deal to hurry it up, and I think that that's something that has come up a lot too, just the lack of value of my time that I've noticed, yeah, and the condescension and how they communicate with you.
Speaker 1:I certainly know people that maybe look down on certain jobs or certain maybe classes of people, but they still even I'm not saying these are better people but they still necessarily wouldn't confront those groups that way, right, right, oh, absolutely. If they think they're well-to-do, they may not still like acknowledge that with those people, but to actually make it so evident, that you look down on this person for what they do is astonishing.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was mainly women, so I was like, wow, like I just maybe it's because I'm a girl's girl and I want to support everybody and I love whatever is doing good for someone, and so I know that not all people are built that way.
Speaker 2:But I have encountered a lot, you know, to the point where, like people would even be like, oh well, can you make your price cheaper? Even that in the beginning I felt guilty, like okay, maybe I should do that because these people are telling me the value of what I'm doing should be less, and that wouldn't come up a lot. But when it did, it would make me think like maybe I'm not worth that. And it came to like a self-confidence thing. And I think that I learned one we're not meant for everybody and also nobody else can really bring value on you that way. And that's even with just the criticism of or not criticism. But that feeling that I got from certain people like my job wasn't enough or it wasn't a real job, it was for fun or a side gig or that part.
Speaker 1:Yeah. They had deemed you and your job as less than yeah, less than them, less than what they do, whatever was in their mind.
Speaker 2:But they had immediately registered your value is not the same as theirs right and I think as I got further into this job, I realized that this had been a thing of pretty much my whole life, you know. So, even going back to you know, I always loved to have my hair makeup and I remember even being judged by maybe girls or guys that thought that that made me less than because I enjoyed those things. And then, here, I made a career out of it. So, even like dating back to high school, I remember I had a teacher say to me one time she was like you know, all you care about is your hair and your makeup. You know that's not going to pay your bills when you're older. You know, this is why we don't have a female president, and I remember her saying that to me and I was like I felt like an idiot, honestly, when she said that to me.
Speaker 2:And just to go back, this was a foreign language teacher. So like, yes, do I think learning more than one language is important? And I did. But why are you telling me that based off what I looked like when I did great in her class? It's not like I was failing her class and not paying attention, I was, but she singled me out because I enjoyed getting myself done up, and now I even sit here and think like I've made an entire career around this, being able to make people feel good, and not even it's not even about the hair or the makeup or anything. It's about genuinely connecting with people and helping them gain more confidence in whatever way. I can, you know so, and that was something that made myself feel better, but here that was taken, you know, to make me feel stupid because I like those things.
Speaker 1:And also, first of all, her statement is so outlandish Like this is why we don't have any female presidents. First of all, hair and makeup is I beg to differ, bro. That is not the reason why we don't have a female president. Also, to say that, if anything, I think hindsight is 20-20, of course, I imagine when you're younger you realize that in the moment that just feels really horrible to go through, but in hindsight, for her to say that actually makes it 100%, unequivocally clear that it had nothing to do with you and it had everything to do. Speaking of our first part of the conversation, about us having our own kind of misogynistic views that we have to unlearn, for her to, as a woman, say that's why we don't have a female president when it's in context of hair and makeup.
Speaker 1:That just shows that she has so much ingrained misogyny in her because as a teacher, she should know full well, with an education, that ma'am, literally. That is not why we don't have a female president.
Speaker 2:Well, and I do think it is not with all, but a lot of the older generation. You know, I have an aunt that would make comments to me like that too, where you know she would agree with my dad when he'd be like, you know, this isn't a real job. And all that because I think that she was kind of that old school feminist. Right, we act like men and, yes, we have, you know, where we don't need to look like men, act like men. None of that is, you know, at all true. So I can look really good and now I have a ton of clients. This is why I love my job so much, because I do get so many of these women that are, you know, in the corporate world, that are doing big things or have a platform, that they're using their voices and they're in full glam, and they are, you know, doing a lot of big positions in fields that men tend to run. And I love that because I love that for these women, because it shows that we're changing the view of hair and makeup, making us weaker or making us less than like the study that was done that men don't like red lipstick, you know, because it's too loud, and I have a client of mine that's like put that red lipstick on me, I want to be loud, you know. So, you know goes back to that, and that even touches base.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes I get again. When I would get brides, they would come in and tell me like, oh, my husband doesn't like when I wear makeup, so that would be even something that would come in and I'm like great, I have to put makeup on this girl and she's worried about you know. So I feel like even that would come in where I'm like oh, like, you know, they don't see the value in it either. They don't even want them to get it done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so many different variables go into this, but these are just a couple that I feel like I've touched on. That I think, you know, in this industry, has affected me, or I shouldn't even say affected me. It's opened my mind to be like OK, I need to be vocal in certain situations. So I think now, going into some of these bookings, I really am. I almost want to say I feel like people value me more because I'm very vocal about being valuable and that maybe comes off cockier now, but I've just realized I can't let people belittle my job because it's not little, and I think that that's something that's changed my mindset, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:No, it does. I actually was going to say I mean, I think, not to put my coach hat on, but you know, I often will have women who will be like I feel weird kind of owning my value, standing up for myself, bragging about myself in a performance review, etc. I'm like I've never met a man that struggled to do that of time because he didn't have enough time to talk about all of his accomplishments that were probably mostly done or possible because of women. And I think that my theory is that I think that it's just that women have never been allowed or been in positions where they've been able to boast about their accomplishments and their value. So when we do it, it catches them off guard. They're like, wait a minute, we've told you your value.
Speaker 1:And like, for example, I once came into a job at the exact same time as a guy who had the exact same title as me, but we were going to run two different teams, we'd be side by side and we literally had the same starting day, like that's how aligned we were on timing, experience, everything. And then, like, months in, I found out that even though we had the same title, the same size team, the same scope of work, all of it, that he was getting paid more. And I was talking to him about it one day over drinks and he was like well, didn't you negotiate? And I said, well, I tried, I did try to negotiate with them and they basically told me we're not open for negotiation. And he was like, really, my negotiation lasted for a week and it's like that very thing. It's like they don't expect us to actually be like this is what I'm worth. And when we say this is what I'm worth, they're like whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like they took the matrix pill and they're like wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and you know what, to even piggyback off that type of situation. I feel like this comes up when I'm getting more, maybe production jobs, and before they even ask me my price, they say, oh, this is the budget we have for you, and if it's below my, my pay, like my day rate, I'll write back and I'll say actually, this is my day rate. And they're like oh, I'm sorry, well, this is all we can give, can you do this at least? And it's usually a couple hundred under, if not more. So it's automatically like they're giving me my worth right and there's no negotiation. That's what it is. But I guarantee you that videographer or editor went in and they paid their rate, no problem. They paid the talent's rate, no problem, but my rate, you know, this is all we have for you.
Speaker 1:And it's so layered right Because I feel like if you, as, let's say, a makeup artist, are coming in and a male videographer is coming in to your point, they're not going to give you room to negotiate or talk about your value. They're going to predetermine that for you, whereas they might do that with the male videographer, but then let's say it was a female videographer, I bet then they'd also still challenge her. So it's so many layers of misogyny because it's like totally they're devaluing your job.
Speaker 1:But let's be real. They're devaluing your job because your job is very feminine and they've determined that that's a female thing, which is automatically devaluing it. And then when it's another role, maybe a videographer or photographer, and they happen to be a woman, then it's like well, you know it's.
Speaker 2:Well, see, and I feel like I agree with that, but I've also been in situations. You know, I worked with a female photographer for a very long time and I ended up cutting ties because her price was very high and she didn't want mine to be high, she wanted it to be lower. And I remember her telling me, you know, I even reached out to my mentor and they told me I could just do the hair and makeup myself. She's like, you know, your job's not really needed for this, and these were luxury photo shoots that people would book. And I remember sitting there and I was like, how do I handle this? Because a part of me was like, maybe she's right.
Speaker 2:You know, I was still learning in that situation. And then the other part of me was like, wait, what Like? So her price is valued correctly for herself, but because she views me as a step below, or a couple steps below, or definitely below her, you know, she wanted to again negotiate my price because she didn't want it to affect her, because she thought her work was worth more than mine. So I think that it really, truly depends. Do I think I see this much more with men don't understand people booking these types of services at all because they don't think they're necessary. And they're not a necessary service, they're a want. People want these services, and I think that's where the difference comes in too. But no, I feel like I've faced it from men and women, but I think maybe the lack of understanding is differently coming from men, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I mean you bring up a great point, because you know, I'm definitely not someone who's gonna say all men are the problem.
Speaker 1:I've certainly met many women that have been the problem, and I won't deny that I, as a woman rising up in my corporate career, have probably been a problem for another woman at some point because I thought there was only enough room for one of us and it was going to be me totally. And so I think the real root not to sound, you know, hyper ragey feminist, but the real brew is the patriarchy right. It's how it affects our thought processes, our mindsets and whether we're male or female?
Speaker 1:I think it leans more male, but specifically white male. But yeah, I've certainly had a lot of women throughout my career that I've feuded with and I've looked back and thought, thought, when I had an active part in it, yeah, how much of that was that? I just genuinely didn't like that woman, because as women, we're allowed to not like other women.
Speaker 1:it doesn't mean that we're not being feminist or that we're not supporting women. But it did make me question how many of those times not that they were like I'm making it sound like there were like a hundred feuds've had, no, no, I understand. It makes me wonder you know how many of those could I have been better or different had I had more knowledge or information, because I was coming into it with a misogynistic perspective that I didn't even realize.
Speaker 2:No, definitely, and I think that you know, like we said before, that does affect, like I've had to unlearn a lot of these behaviors, but I do think there's a lot of women that have not done that work yet, you know. So I do think that that's where it comes into play, where, when I am dealing with certain women in the professional world that maybe hire me on or work beside me, I think, you know, there's a lot of them that are still in that. So I agree, I think it's a lot of unlearning and I wish more women would, and I think that that's the thing I think we're getting there. That is why I feel like I take this so seriously, because I'm raising the next generation and I want to make sure that I'm studying all three of them and I have boys and girls, so I want to make sure I'm setting the right example for them. You know, when it comes to that, and I think, even for my husband seeing me get into this industry, because before I really decided to freelance, be on my own and start my own business, I stayed home for a small period of time with my first kid. So I think even my husband was like I don't know if this is a good idea. How many people you know are going to book like hair and makeup or you know what can you really do with that? And again, like the lack of knowledge, right, and he wasn't even saying it in a mean way, he was just like is this the right step for us? You know, as a family, this is risky, you know. And I was like you know what? I just have a good feeling about it, I know, I'm good at it, like, like I think it's going to be great. And he was like okay, and he was very supportive from the start.
Speaker 2:And now, even when comments get made to him about me, like he had a comment from a male coworker at work and he's in a male dominated field, and he had one that said you know, my husband doesn't work Saturdays and like, in his field, a lot of the men have to work Saturdays and he doesn't, because I make more money than him on Saturdays and we do have kids, so he stays home with the kids and I work Saturdays. And I think there was actually a couple guys at his work that were like oh, why shouldn't you be working? Don't you make more than her? And he was like actually, and he's like they were blown away. They were blown away that people spend money on this or that this is actually a career or that I'm you know, that I have bookings. They're like what you know. And so he even had to give them a little knowledge and I think that was, for me, cool to see him even just be explaining things, because they already didn't value what I was doing. They thought it was a little side gig and even if it was whatever, it still has value. But to the point where he had to even tell them because he had unlearned all of that as well, which I think is a great thing for him to see you know and learn, and for my kids to see too.
Speaker 2:I was laughing when he told me that you know. He's like, yeah, I'm telling them, you know, because they just assumed different, like we said, obstacles, and I think it ties into, maybe for the beauty industry, the judgment that we place on women that do enjoy looking a certain way. You know, and I think that that's where I've learned women who tend to be more girly and feminine and like and like makeup or like to get their hair done or like to dress up. They tend to be pinned, the ditzy girls or you know whatever I feel like. And that's where I've noticed that this correlates with my job, because I even have, like clients have clients. You know that that get those comments too. So I think it all correlates with how we perceive women and how society has taught us that these type of women are usually a certain way, which is obviously not the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's so layered. I think listeners will remember a recent episode with Samantha Martin talking about femphobia is exactly what we're talking about. I also think there's the other side of it too, which I brought up with her as well, which is, you know, for example, when I look on TikTok and I see these girls like the whole hashtag trad wife, traditional wife for those of you not on TikTok the trend of hashtag trad wife, where they're basically like I'm not a feminist, I can cook, you know like those kind of tropes, and I do think it's interesting, because what I think those women are getting wrong is that the whole point of feminism is that you should be able to choose and equally, equally valued.
Speaker 1:So I think the case around femphobia and what she spoke about, what you're talking- about is so important, because I absolutely agree that things that are more traditionally feminine or things that have been historically associated with women are devalued purely because they are associated with women On the other hand you then have women who are like I don't want to wear makeup. I want to dress more masculine and they're also not taken seriously. And I think the whole point is stop devaluing us.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, that's it yeah like just devaluing us. Yes, absolutely, that's it yeah like just stop devaluing us.
Speaker 1:Think about all the different types of male-driven careers, male hobbies, male personalities, male looks, styles, literally all of the different varieties of man that can exist, and no one is questioning their manhood, their value, their voice. And yet, no matter what choice a woman makes, how she decides to show up in the world, what she decides to say with her mouth, what she decides to learn with her brain, it will always, always, always be questioned, and that is the problem.
Speaker 2:Well, that's why I also think that if we kept up with this way of life, this is why I feel like women are pinned against each other to judge each other off what they look like Instead, where it could you know, because of this whole pressure put on us by men to look a certain way, and that's where I think it comes in, and that's why I think there are comments made between women. You know, whether they're wearing makeup, whether they're not, or you know, taken seriously either way, and that's the problem is, like you said, it doesn't matter what we look like, what we're wearing, what we're doing. We're all one obviously able to do whatever our job is and get it done correctly. It shouldn't matter what we look like or just, in general, be a good person. It shouldn't matter what we look like at all.
Speaker 1:I saw on beam yesterday. You know, with all the politics that are happening in America right now for context, I know I have listeners in Germany and Japan and South Africa. Hello, to those of you not in the US, you may have seen on the news that US politics are bananas right now, especially for women's rights, and I basically saw a meme that was commenting on American politics and was like men only want women to either be like handmaid's tale, worshipping their feet with a Bible in one hand and a plate of food on the other, with a skirt down to their ankles and shirt up to their collarbone, or they want the really sexy boobs up to their eyebrows triple D, but for days, and there's no in between. But they will still judge you for both of those. So they want you to be one of those. But even if you're one of those, they'll be really angry that you're not the other one. If you ever tiptoe over the line. You're a whore, you're a prude. It's like literally the Barbie monologue from the movie. It's like you can't win 100%.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think too that that's where I've noticed even the judgment with just correlate it back with makeup, or you know, in general the beauty industry is those women tend to get comments made like that. Like, for example, before I started in the beauty industry, I was in the service industry. I worked in a restaurant and there were four of us that worked. We would take the food out to cars that would order. So there were four of us.
Speaker 2:I think I was probably the only one that really wore makeup and did my hair. The other three girls were just. They just didn't dress up as much for work and, again, I enjoyed that kind of stuff. That's why I did it. You know, there was no comments made or anything, but there was four of us. We were all 16. So keep that in mind, we're all the same age and I feel like I got comments made to me more often, and I think it's because I would wear lipstick to work, you know, and we're asking for it, right, and I think it's because I would wear lipstick to work, you know, and the other girls.
Speaker 2:You were asking for it, right, exactly, exactly. And I remember, even like the first comment that I had made to me, mind you again, like I said, I was 16 and I brought the food out. It was raining out. I brought it to the car and the man who was older, probably in his late 50s, early 60s, gave me a dollar tip and said that's for getting wet for me. And I froze because I remember being like ew, what the hell just happened, right, and I was like that's disgusting and I took it and I remember, just knowing my hand was shaking and I went inside and I told the girl that worked with me and she was like ew, what? And we were like ew, ew, ew. And at the time we had a female manager. So I told her she was livid. So that was a good experience for me in that aspect, because she was like ew. If that ever happens again, you need to tell me and I'm going to go out to the car. We will not deliver his food.
Speaker 2:But the owner of the restaurant was a male and who had made comments to all of us before. So I remember thinking like thank God that she was the manager on that day, because I think if it was him, he would have made me feel stupid for being grossed out by it, even maybe. But I just couldn't even believe that that comment was made and, like I said, there had been other comments made to me throughout just working in a restaurant at such a young age, because why I had lipstick on or lip gloss on. You know, and I'm not saying that that's the only reason, but I do feel like maybe I was targeted because they thought, you know, she's asking for it or she's clearly a certain way. But I think back to like what I was wearing. Right, I had to wear a button up and slacks, so it's not, you know, I wasn't in a typical outfit that they felt like they could pinpoint, but they still didn't. I was 16. So I just get so grossed out by that.
Speaker 1:You know, listeners, be real with you. She told me that story before we started recording and I thought, oh man, I wish she told me that first on we started recording and I thought, oh man, I wish she told me that first on recording so I could have a natural reaction. My reaction is still as appalled as it is the first time I heard it. It is so on brand, though I can't speak for other countries, but for America in particular, I think. For example, I've told my husband, because he did not grow up in America, and I've told him how in school you know, my school didn't have like uniforms or anything, which I think most public schools in America don't, and how the boys never had any rules about their clothing, but the girls in my school, like our shorts had to be like the length of our hand, if you put your hand down to the fingertips right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I have really long arms, which meant my shorts were going to be like three inches from my knees and then your tank tops. The straps had to be at least like a three finger width across, and they would always say, well, it's to not distract the boys. And I, even as a teenager, would be like what are we talking about? Why are we worrying about distracting the boys and not talking to the boys about not looking at women like sexual objects?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny you say that because that's something that's even come up with my kids now and they're in elementary. I had to call the school because a comment was made to my daughter who's eight and the worst part is she came home and told me the situation and told me that she felt uncomfortable because she thought something was wrong with her body. Because there are, just to be clear, there are no dress codes anymore in public school at least where I live, there are, there's no dress code because they realized that they were sexist. So public school has has taken those out. So I remember her just coming home and being like is something wrong with me? And that hit me to the core, like she asked if something was wrong with her body. That somebody said you know, she can't wear that. And I was like, oh, that's what I.
Speaker 2:The feeling I remember is every time a comment was made to me about what I look like, what my body looks like, I remember taking that internally and being like what's wrong with me? Like they were shaping everything they think of. So I made sure I nipped that in the bud right away and I was like listen, there's nothing wrong with you. You are eight years old. You have a normal eight year old body and nobody should ever be making comments about your body ever. Have a normal eight year old body and nobody should ever be making comments about your body ever. So like we had a big talk about it and I still feel like even towards the end of the year, she was skeptical about what she would put on because of this teacher that made a comment and I'm like you know what. But no, I will not allow that to continue Because we've all faced that you know with how we look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sends the message. Talk about devaluing women. I mean, you see these stories online in the last like 10 years where it's like teenage girl is sent home from school because she won't change her tank top or put on longer pants, and I always thought to myself anyone who questions whether it's about distracting young men's minds or it's about devaluing women you're telling me that her education and staying at school that day to learn and be a better member of society was less important than distracting teenage boys because her tank top strap was less than three finger widths apart, when you tell me that a woman's clothing choice is more impactful and important than her education. Not to get on my high horse, but that is ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%. It is ridiculous, it is absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1:And I still just, I mean, I was about to say I can't believe that man said that to you, but I can't believe it. I can absolutely believe it. I've been said, I've had horrible things said to me, both at work and my personal life as a. I've told my husband before when I was a teenager I used to love walking outside after school my whole life. I am a grown woman in my 30s.
Speaker 1:I've never had more men catcall me, drive repeatedly back and forth past me on the street than when I was a 14 or 15 or 16 year old girl walking down the street in exercise clothes. Mind you, I wasn't wearing anything scandalous, although that shouldn't even matter. I would just be walking down the street with my little mp3 player playing some stupid band, that doesn't matter, listening to my music, and these men would drive back and forth in their pickup truck and what Kat called me. They drive back and forth like five or six times to the point where I felt scared and I would be like 14 years old and these were grown men and it happened more when I was in high school and middle school than in my entirety as an adult conversation with my husband where I said you're not going to realize like how often these type of situations happen, but now you are because you have a daughter.
Speaker 2:I said I just want you to really like pay attention Because, like I said, my daughter's eight and she's getting to those ages where I feel like even you know the next couple years where men do make comments and, like you said, just outside, I mean I remember one time I was 12, learning how to rollerblade off a busier street where I lived and men honking, like it's not even like I was doing anything that was seductive, which I'm 12. But there was no, you know, like they say, asking for it. I was learning to rollerblade and I have this happening.
Speaker 1:And let me add, for anyone who questions the validity of a woman having to qualify whether she was being seductive, the fact that again, at least in America, that American women, when they tell a story about being a 12-year-old girl learning how to rollerblade, and they have to start the story by saying and I wasn't even doing anything seductive.
Speaker 2:Right, no, it's so true.
Speaker 1:That should have been enough when you said I was 12 years old you shouldn't have had to qualify. I wasn't doing anything seductive when I had to say I'm walking down the street at 14 year olds, 14 years old, just minding my business after school, and then I have to qualify it by saying I wasn't wearing anything scandalous. I'd hope not, but but even if you were, you're a child, you're a literal child. These grown men are being disgusting, and so, of course, we take those experiences and memories into our adult years.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, oh yeah. Well, I think that's what impacts us when we wear anything. You know, to work right, I mean, like I don't tend to work with a ton of men, so I usually feel pretty comfortable wearing whatever I want to, you know. But I feel like if I know I'm doing something on site for, say, a corporate company that I'm going to be doing, you know, hair and makeup on a lot of men, I tend to dress differently for those jobs because to make myself feel more comfortable, you know, because of the people I'm going to be around men. So I mean that does impact, but that's because that's where I've learned it from. Does impact, but that's because that's where I've learned it from. You know, if I try and conceal what I look like, maybe I won't get comments, but the truth is that doesn't stop the men from making comments to us at any age, apparently or even people who like then behind your back be like wow, I can't believe she showed up so unprofessionally, oh yeah, or something that tight and it's like it's just form fitting.
Speaker 2:That is what I've noticed not working in corporate. So two of my siblings work more in corporate America and I noticed that they worry more about that and I think maybe I don't worry about that. But I also think that because, like we were saying before, a lot of my clientele is in corporate America. I maybe tend to feel a little more judged because of what I'm wearing in general from whoever, if it's on set or whatever, because I don't have to dress that professional, you know workplace attire. I can dress however I want. I guess I of not being in, you know, corporate, but I feel like all women should be able to do that. Like we said, what we're wearing doesn't affect our job. So who cares what we're wearing?
Speaker 1:Well, and you know, I just thought of something too, and I know we're running out of time, but because you're a makeup artist, I just thought about how I've talked to another guest as well about how, when women in corporate America go to work, if we don't wear makeup let's say we normally do wear makeup and then we don't it's like a damned if you do, damned if you don't, because if we have our hair done and we wear makeup, they're like oh, they're girly, they're, you know, it's like deemed as less than taking it seriously, right.
Speaker 1:Right, but then when we don't, it like are you sick? Is something wrong with you? You don't. I've been told before that I didn't show up to a meeting with a client professionally because I didn't wear makeup that day and was like this is just my face right right how is my face not professional? It's so bizarre. So it's like they devalue the work you do because you work in makeup. But then when we don't do it and we're like, okay, well then I won't wear makeup, they're like that's not professional.
Speaker 2:No, because we can't win, right? I even feel like I have clients that assume like they'll say like, oh, do you do your makeup all the time? And I'm like no, and they're like, oh, you don't. And I'm like, no, you know, even when I do clients, I don't do a ton of makeup and I feel like you know, and they're not even in a bad way, but they assume that I'm doing it and I think it's because they think like I have to, almost to show my value for me because this is my job. But there's a lot of us that are have call times of 5am, 4am. I mean, who's getting up and putting makeup on then? Nobody right. And it's the same thing for women that are getting up in the corporate world and have to wake up early. They're not trying to do a full face of makeup just to be either told that that they're not going to be taken seriously or they, you know, it's like we can't win whatever way we're doing yeah, I wish I had the rights to the Barbie movie.
Speaker 1:I would just insert America Ferreira's speech right here yes yes, it's quite literally that speech.
Speaker 1:It's like we, it doesn't matter what we do. And I'm not even, because sometimes I listen to other feminist podcasts and sometimes I look at the reviews and you can always tell when a man reviews, because a man will always be like, oh, this is feminist garbage. They clearly, clearly hate men. They just want to victimize themselves. And so I realize that any man listening to this who is not an ally will be like she's just playing the victim card. But let's be real, if you're that marginalized group, you are absolutely going to be able to say my experience in this life has led me to feel less than this is a group that has perpetrated against me and it has led me, both systemically as a group and on an individual level.
Speaker 1:it has led me to feel like I am not valued in this society, in this world, in history, and that the choices and the words, the actions I make don't matter. Right, and that's just how it is. And it's like when you're in a situation where it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. There's no other conclusion to draw from that.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's what's pushed me to this raging, if you want to say feminism is. I truly, truly want to uplift and make sure that all of us women stand together, and I feel like if all of us can unlearn these ridiculous habits that have been taught upon us, then we really can rally together and uplift each other and really make all of us feel confident and worthy, no matter what we look like, what we wear, what we do. You know, we all can stick up for each other, and I will say I definitely think that there are a good portion of men doing that. I mean never enough, but I, like always thank the men that are very vocal about it and are supportive of it, because we need their voices just as much as us women need to stick together and use ours too.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think many guests and I have talked about the importance of male allies. I will never skip an opportunity to educate my husband on something along these lines and you know if you're listening, we've talked quite a bit about how, you know, we had to unlearn misogyny and unlearn some of our weird habits that we didn't realize we had.
Speaker 1:If you're listening and you're like, oh no, I hope that's not me, because I've been there, I listened to, let's say, podcasts about race and you're like, oh no, I hope that's not me, because I've been there, I've listened to, let's say, podcasts about race and I've thought, ooh, I hope I'm not that person. I don't want to be a Karen, et cetera, et cetera. And you're sitting there and you're like I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be that woman struggling to really identify.
Speaker 1:If that's you, because you can have really good intentions and still have those moments I would just always ask yourself, in those moments when you're unsure, if that's what's happening. Ask yourself if what you're saying or doing or thinking or whatever, is it in some way or in any way putting down another type of woman, for who they are, for where they live, for how much money they make, for what they do, for what religion they have, whatever, whatever is part of their identity. Is what you're doing, your action, your words, your thoughts, is it putting them down in some capacity? Because, if so, challenge it. Don't beat yourself up, don't hate yourself. Just challenge it and dig into what is the history of why I'm thinking or feeling or saying this and do the work to undo it, it doesn't mean you're a terrible person absolutely that was great.
Speaker 2:I feel like everybody really, and it really is crazy, like once you become self-aware like that, when you catch yourself like I feel like me personally, whenever I catch myself in whatever toxic thing I'm trying to unlearn I am always like, okay, wait, this is not who I want to be, like we're not even gonna think about that or or speak on that or act. I try and like, really you know how you like coach yourself mentally to get out of that, and then you really truly do. Yeah, you know, but I think, yes, absolutely Becoming self-aware is such a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:Self-awareness and emotional intelligence will heal the world, I'm telling you, it will, it will. So, as we wrap up, I ask every guest this for your field and industry, especially for any younger women who are maybe wanting to join it or enter it what is your dream for women in your field? What is your vision? What do you hope for and wish that women could learn from from your early career?
Speaker 2:I think the biggest thing that I hope women learn in the beauty industry is that they are worth it and they will find the people that value them, and to not waste time on the people that don't, and to really do work, and do work with people that hold the same morals as you, and you'll become better off surrounding you with people that do have those similar morals, because they will value you and your time and your work, and those people are out there, so don't waste your time with the people that are not.
Speaker 1:And anyone who's devaluing beauty as a skill. I'll tell you what. I lost all my beauty makeup skills during COVID. I lost all of them. A lifetime of skills went down the drain. I cannot apply eyeshadow anymore to save my godforsaken life. So anyone who devalues makeup artists is insane. You're artists, but your piece is the face. I don't understand why people don't understand about that.
Speaker 2:No, I appreciate that, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us. I love this. It felt like a TED Talk almost, but in the best way I had such a great time talking to you and I know everyone will enjoy listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it too, and keep doing what you're doing. I love it and we need you, so thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being part of this week's conversation. For more information and additional resources, be sure to visit rachelandpalacom slash podcast for the complete show notes. And you know the drill make sure to subscribe, leave a review and if you love the podcast, make sure to share it with another working woman in your life. You never know who could use the support. Thank you again for spending this time with me, rachel Impala, in this episode of Working Girl. Until next time, keep breaking barriers, shattering stereotypes and redefining success on your own terms. I'll see you soon.
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