Working Girl
Join us on Working Girl, as we dive deep into the complexities of gender bias in the workplace. Each week, we'll bring you candid conversations with real women sharing their experiences and strategic insights from experts who have been in the trenches.
Whether you’re a fierce feminist already clued into how gender inequality can shove a wrench in your career, or you’re only just starting to spot how those sneaky gender inequality hurdles have been tripping you up, this show offers the validation, support, and tactics you need to help you reclaim your career.
Working Girl
Season 1 (OLD FORMAT) - Reality for Women in Finance
This episode is part of our first season, which focused on gender bias in the corporate world. The show has since evolved to focus on women on the front lines of social justice.
In this episode, we welcome a guest in finance who shares the many struggles women have to face in her industry. She initially sidestepped gender-based assumptions by adopting a unisex nickname at a major investment bank. However, her move to a male-dominated firm revealed the deeper, more insidious layers of bias that women continue to face in finance. Her story highlights the persistent barriers and systemic challenges within male-dominated sectors.
From confronting the antiquated practices in corporate America to the token diversity efforts that fall short, we discuss the broader implications of gender bias in the workplace. Hear firsthand accounts of raising concerns with HR only to face silence, and the unequal opportunities for feedback during performance reviews. Our guest also shares her shift to a client-facing role, where female clients were often dismissed and funneled to her, highlighting not only gender bias but the cost of outdated practices on professional growth and client relations.
Emotional expression in the workplace is another critical topic we touch upon. Internalized societal norms discourage vulnerability and create additional hurdles for career progression, especially for women. We explore the stigma faced by both women and men when showing emotion at work, and the importance of creating safe spaces for expressing those emotions. Additionally, we discuss managing burnout and the inappropriate responses from higher management, emphasizing the need for heartfelt conversations and support. Through these narratives, we aim to advocate for meaningful change and healthier work environments in male-dominated industries.
If you loved this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with your fellow working women!
Welcome to Working Girl, your safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace. I'm your host, rachel Impala, aka the Gender Bias Coach. I've witnessed firsthand the insidious effects of gender bias on women's careers. What's worse, no one is talking about it. That's why my mission is to end the stigma surrounding these conversations and to create a culture of openness and empowerment. It's time for women to stop shouldering these burdens alone and start receiving the validation and support they deserve. So sit back, relax and welcome to the ultimate support group for working women. All right, welcome to another episode of Working Girl. I cannot believe we are on episode what is it? Nine? Crazy Love, that? Yeah, the season is flying by and you know what. We're coming in hot, with amazing guests. We have not slowed down. I am so thrilled to have you today. I cannot wait for everyone to hear your experiences. We haven't had any women from your industry or field. I know, even without talking to you, your field is going to have stories upon stories upon stories. So, without further ado, tell us a little about yourself.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited to be here today. Thanks so much again. So yes, I am, in the finance industry, very male dominated. I want to preface all of my stories with I was not prepared for there to be a gender bias type of in the industry that I was going into. No one warned me, no one prepared me. My father is also the one who pushed me to do this. So it makes sense that a male is used to this type of industry. But I've always been a guy's girl. I've always had guy friends going up, so I've never really seen this true gender bias break until I started my work career.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's anything that you get prepped for. No one really talks about it in college, which is very frustrating, but you just have to learn as you go. So one of my first jobs out of college was at a very, very large investment bank, very male heavy, but my department was female heavy, which was very nice. It was very, you know, warm and welcoming. The job that I had accepted was an accounting role initially at this large investment bank, and about two days before I started my new job, my dad's friend called me and he had previously worked at this place and he said, hey, congratulations again on your new role. I'm so excited for you. I have a tip for you. And I said, okay, thinking it was going to be listen to your manager, you know, work your way through, do everything you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the basic kind of advice.
Speaker 2:Basic post-college advice. If you're able to change your name on your first day, do it. And, as I guess background for the listeners I have, my name is a unisex nickname and I said you know, I normally go by my nickname, but I was planning on using my full name for work. Why should I change it? And he said you know they'll listen to you and this is prior to me even starting this job. And I was very taken aback and I said you know, okay, I'll listen to you, and this is prior to me even starting this job. And I was very taken aback and I said you know, okay, I'll see what I can do. First day I came in and you know a lot of, I think, people's first day is just getting access to things and getting your email set up, onboarding and the first thing I did was reach out to IT and say you know, can you change my email, can you change my chat, everything to my nickname, my unisex nickname which they did, and I didn't think anything of it at the time.
Speaker 2:Come down the road, when I actually left this job, I did find out that it ended up working in my favor, which is unfortunate. It shouldn't have to be the case, because I met someone that I reported to who lived in New York. He came into town and when we had dinner, the first thing out of his mouth when I said, hi, my name is X, he said oh, I didn't realize you were a woman. Two years into my job, I never had issues there. I think I did not have issues there because a lot of people did not know I was a woman and because it's such a large company, I think it's easier to bypass that system, also my department being having more women than men. The environment that I was in itself was comforting and it wasn't very stressful, so I didn't just realize anything was out of the ordinary. But then I moved to my next job, which was the last job that I had. I was there for six years and I moved to a small company and when I started there was about 150 people. When I left there was over 700. So that growth rate is crazy.
Speaker 2:The office that I was in I was one of six women out of 60 people and I noticed immediately oh, this might become an issue. Day one I started at this new place, did the exact same thing contacted IT out of just pure habit. Changed my name to my nickname, please. Everything across the board got updated, but I noticed on the first day, just sitting in the environment that there was going to be an issue and I think it's just.
Speaker 2:You know the eye rolls of this woman in finance trying to be one of the boys, but I've always been one of the boys, so I didn't understand what the disconnect was. The boys, but I've always been one of the boys, so I didn't understand what the disconnect was. You know, like I hadn't experienced that yet, who was giving those kinds of reactions? The eye rolls? All men and all of the women were not all. Most of the women were executive assistants, which is people you know don't understand how much really goes into that role. But there was only three of us who worked in the finance sector part and pretty much you know, they gave me a mentor, which was one of the women. They set up a lunch for me, only us three women. It was very apparent that they were trying to group me with them immediately, which I don't mind. But I didn't understand why we weren't having a team lunch, why we weren't going out as a team doing everything. And it was, you know, because they didn't trust us.
Speaker 1:It was like a forced employee resource. Group.
Speaker 2:Immediately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you didn't even sign up for it, but they're like you should be together because we don't want you over here.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And they told me it was a team lunch and I didn't work with these two women. They were in different departments and within finance and I said, well, is this really a team lunch, or you know what's? What's happening here? What's happening here?
Speaker 2:That workplace is probably where the majority or a few of my stories are going to be coming from, because this is where I really learned that you have to put up such a front to push your way through. I didn't realize. I think I was just rose colored glasses type thing. Very, you know. Well, I'm going to work hard and I'm going to do well in my job and finance. Well, I'm going to work hard and I'm going to do well in my job and finance. There's more critical thinking than there is, you know, creativity, and so if I'm proving myself right over and over and over, how could you not trust me? And I mean after I was there for over five years and even looking back now when I left, it was still. Very you know, they grouped the women into one sector together.
Speaker 2:The biggest thing that I've noticed working in finance is the men want to have their boy club and their boy time and they want to go get drinks and they want to do their chatting and they just they do not care about ignoring you or being flat out rude to you and no one around them is going to say anything. So I was immediately being disrespected. From the first week that I started it was more of a. You know, I have a question. Don't speak up, keep your head down. You know we can talk about this post meeting.
Speaker 2:I couldn't bring anything up and I was told by my direct manager at the time we try to keep it high level speaking, which, in his way, was trying to say, you know, leadership level, which I noticed was not the case. Everyone was talking. That was a man, but he told me we try to have leadership talking to keep things from getting emotional. And what do you mean emotional? How can this be emotional? Well, we've just noticed in the past, if random people chime in, it can become an emotional conversation and it's wasting people's time. And that was a point too where, you know, I kind of said but why, if I have a good question, if I have a good comment, you know why do I have to wait until after the meeting? Give this to you and then you are going to present it. That doesn't make sense to me. I'm a very straightforward person and I've never hid behind anything. I don't like to keep my head down. I speak up when things are wrong immediately and I said you know that's not fair.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I was gonna say it. It wasn't even like you were pushing back over the top just to push back, like having a feminist moment which you would have been entitled to. It sounded like you were just responding with common sense, Like what you're telling me doesn't?
Speaker 2:make sense. This just doesn't make sense. And he said you know, this is the way it is. And when I wanted clarity I didn't get me. It was this conversation is done, we're moving on. Like I said, I am not one to keep my head down. I immediately escalated it. I thought, you know, going to HR kind of saying this is a very apparent thing that is going on and I am definitely not going to have a long career here If this is the type of environment that I'm going to be in. They never responded. There was no response, so I'm assuming that means that it was just pushed into a folder, overlooked, and they said that's not an urgent issue.
Speaker 2:I guess for the first, I would say, year I did comply with this, you know, keeping my head down. The way they want, they hired one more woman after me. It was not until they made a woman's affinity group that we magically started hiring a bunch of women. There was also a point where I remember directly my manager said that they were only looking at women resumes, which in my professional experience means someone else has spoken up about this. There was not just one person, there's been multiple people who have said you know, it's very extreme and noticeable that this is an all boys club, so started seeing people come in.
Speaker 2:But we get to our year end review. They tell me everything's great, perfect, I'm already on track for promotion. I've only been there five months. They are pleased with everything. They just want me to continue doing what I'm doing. And they never asked me if I had any feedback. And so, towards the end of the review, I said you know, can I ask a few questions? I have some feedback that I would like to present. My manager immediately said no. He said I am telling you how you did. We are not going to make this once again emotional. And I said I don't understand how me wanting to provide feedback is an emotional thing. And he said I just don understand how me wanting to provide feedback is an emotional thing. And he said I just don't want to get into it.
Speaker 1:Because it's also like it's not as if you presented it in an emotional way. It wasn't as if you were like I really need to get this stuff up my chest and you were like tearing up yeah. You just asked what is a pretty standard practice at most companies to have reciprocal performance feedback.
Speaker 2:Right, and that was the end of the conversation. I didn't really think anything of it. I was still too new to push back, and it wasn't until the following year that I had really stepped up and said I don't care, I'm giving you this feedback either way. It is, you know, formal and it's written and I need this in writing. But at that time I definitely didn't clock that it was that serious of a deal.
Speaker 2:It was a few months later that I was speaking with a coworker and he had made complaints in his review those few months ago and I said, wait, you got to give feedback Because I asked to provide feedback and was told no. And he said, yeah, half my conversation was feedback for the firm, and so that was very interesting. I said, oh, so they just don't care about our opinion at all, which it's one of those things where it's almost such textbook movie ridiculous of there being an obvious bias that you don't think it's true. It felt very like this is straight out of a movie, not any of the secret, you know, just getting a side comment or it being harder to get promoted or anything like that. It was just why didn't I get the same experience as you did in a year. In review, I've actually been here two months longer than you have, so I should have more feedback than you have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like you know so many industries I think mostly after the Me Too movement but so many industries have kind of been forced to have a reckoning for their issues with different marginalized groups, and I feel like finance is one of the few that has been able to remain very antiquated because it is still so male driven, and I think tech is as well. But I think maybe tech is a lot more in the news and the headlines so people are talking about it, so their issues have more likelihood of being put into the spotlight, which is like why they're trying to incorporate more DE&I.
Speaker 1:But then with finance, like no one's really talking about the inner workings of the finance world and they just care about, like, their stock prices and their investments and all of that and their bottom line. So these industries, like finance, are able to stay and get away with staying this antiquated because, like, who's going to stop them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and no one's going to stop them. And at this most recent job that I had, I would say I felt like you know that should have been a red flag of we're only looking at women resumes, where it's a oh, they're trying to check a box, where under a certain percent threshold.
Speaker 2:They are trying to check a box at this moment. I don't know if it was me turning a blind eye for them. That's the problem. I think you know working in this industry is very you don't want to speak up that much because if you play by their rules and you accommodate the boys club, then sometimes they'll let you in.
Speaker 2:And if they let you in, you will get promotion after promotion after promotion, but at what cost? At what cost Are you really in, you know? Is it just when they're in a good mood? Or I mean that actually makes me think of one particular instance where, at my last company, I had transitioned roles from accounting to a investor facing type position, very salesy, loved it. It was definitely something that I realized I truly wanted to do and I received a new boss. He was very, very high up on the chain in the firm and I noticed almost immediately all of the comments he would make of any type of client that we had out there.
Speaker 2:This email is too annoying, too emotional too. This too that you can handle it. I'm not going to handle it. You can handle it. And it was all women clients that were being pushed my way. So I finally get to face the investors and clients on frontward and then you want to shove me, these people, because you think they are being annoying. That's fine, you're way higher up, I'll take the grunt work. Oh wait, everyone you're shoving to me that's annoying is a woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're being interesting. It's so interesting because it's like a devil whammy it's bias against you and it's bias against them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just so wild how they can sit there with and sit in the office and say things like so andand-so she's being too needy, she's talking too much, she's in a bad mood. You might not want to talk to her, but you never hear that about any of the men in the office. No one ever warns you if someone's in a bad mood.
Speaker 1:But I'll tell you one thing right now In my career I can name at least 10 men that I remember very well for being extremely moody or being very volatile, or angry or not being able to process their emotions. I've said it before on a previous episode think about how much better corporate America would be if every like leader primarily male leaders had to have like training on emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2:Oh, it'd be so much easier.
Speaker 1:I know it's like they know all the hard skills, but it's like guys, they do matter.
Speaker 2:I had a boss so the boss at my big bank job. I actually followed him to the previous job that I had, so I've worked with him for over eight years. He knew my struggles with it. This was a very, very high up so I didn't work with him directly. I saw him more as a mentor. He saw my struggles and we actually had a meeting every quarter called the quarterly meltdown meeting. That was him and I. We would sit in an office. I saw the look on your face. I know it looks weird. Actually, I think you might appreciate it a little bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay, it scared me. I feel like anytime meltdown is said with a woman in the workplace I owe my, it triggers me and I'm like, oh no, but please I want it to be a positive.
Speaker 2:It was actually positive for me. I did appreciate it. We had a quarterly meltdown meeting and it would always be right when we finished our major deadlines. And I had learned very quickly. You know, don't speak out the way you normally do. If you see something wrong, don't just point it out. Don't get upset when someone tells you you're wrong and you're actually right. Don't argue just kind of. You know, stay the course and it pins up and it builds up, builds up, and so my old boss would say okay, this is it. And the second he would say this is it.
Speaker 2:I would just start bawling and it's like the entire quarter's worth of pent up emotion would just be let out. He would always book a room that had no windows or see-through doors, so we could be in an enclosure, and he would say just let it out, and I would just cry and cry and cry and he would say you know, is there anything specific that we need to address? As in you know those? A major comment which, yeah, something he needs to like, step in Right, and sometimes it would be yes, sometimes it would be no, and he would say you know, how long do you need? Do you need 30 minutes? Do you now or do you want to go home this afternoon?
Speaker 2:And I've had some people tell me that they don't like that. He took that approach, but I know men also don't enjoy crying. I feel like sometimes they get uncomfortable when they do see more emotion than just a straight forward look, when they do see more emotion than just a straight forward look. And I did appreciate that he knew this is something that I was always holding on to all the time, and so he would set aside time and just sit with me. He wasn't expecting me to rat people out or to give them a story, it was just let's just, you know, breathe, yeah he was creating a safe space for you.
Speaker 2:Which is surprising of all the people that it was him, especially because he has told me on numerous occasions that he gets uncomfortable around any type of situation. I mean, he told me. He said you know, even when my wife gets upset, I get uncomfortable. I can't help it, that's just, it's how I feel. So I always appreciated it because I felt like that he really did care. He wasn't ticking a box, that's not something that he needed to worry about. When the workday is over, he can go home and I don't have to be part of his thoughts at all. And instead he was like you know, she needs this every few months, she just needs this time. So when I moved positions internally at my last job, my new boss was not like that at all. Within the first week actually, he had immediately told me that if someone cries, that means they are doing something wrong because they feel guilty. And if that person is guilty, then they did not put forth 100% effort, which means you're not contributing to the team.
Speaker 1:I would argue that is seriously lacking in emotional intelligence. Oh, 100%. Like emotion isn't a weakness. I don't understand why. I mean, I do understand it. Our society has very much drilled into us that I would say emotion is flawed. But I would say almost anything that could be defined as like feminine or being womanly has been deemed a flaw. But it's like actually emotion is a strength.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's a strength. I feel like it shows that you truly care, and when you transition to a new role and then someone that you thought was a good person, because they have a good reputation at the company, says something like that to you within the first week hey, fyi, don't do any of this, because if you do, this is how we see it and it's just like, oh, so this is how you see it, or is this how the company sees it? It makes it sound like if you even shed one tear, you're not getting a promotion ever, which is baffling to me.
Speaker 1:You know and I'm thinking back I think even I've internalized that rhetoric of, as a woman, like, don't cry at the office. You know, I always made a point, if I ever got emotional, to go to my car or to the restroom. And as a people manager, I used to tell the women on my team, if something ever happens can be work related, doesn't have to be work related. If you feel like you're going to cry, I would always tell them come into my office, I could be on a call, I can be busy. You don't have to explain it to me, you can just say I need a private moment and I'll just let you sit there on the couch and cry and be emotional. But that way you don't have to do it in front of others. And it's interesting because you've told two stories now where I think on one hand, as you were saying it, I was like I think that's kind of what I did. I kind of gave them a safe space to have their emotions.
Speaker 2:It does sound very similar.
Speaker 1:But then also on this story, I'm thinking and I'm like, but wait, that was clearly also some internalized misogyny on my part, where it's like but I can't let them cry, and I don't think I was trying to in that way. I think it was more that I just know how people look at women crying in the office and as women, our personal brand is everything in the workplace and so it's like I don't agree with it. But if I know people are going to prejudge you because you're emotional in front of others, let me at least give you a quiet, safe space to do it, and it's like such a weird backwards thing. But it's like we can all mean well, but society's just not there yet. I just don't see a world in the near future where women can like openly cry at the office and they're not going to be judged.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've actually also ran into some interesting people at my previous job too, who there was an incident of a person who received a year in review that he was not happy about and a lot of people don't hear about men crying in the office and he was very upset and left. There was two people who were walking by and caught the very quick end and saw this man leaving, and it was 30 minutes of them just making fun of him, and so if they're making fun of him, then what's going to happen if they ever saw me shed a tear? I don't even want to know that. Who knows where it would start and it probably would never end.
Speaker 2:There was one time I got some really upsetting personal news while I was working and it was a text message. I had read it. I was being shown something on my screen and the guy was leaning over and showing me each and there's just tears rolling down my face and I kept my voice very steady steady so he wouldn't notice, and it was not until about 15 minutes later, when he was done showing me everything and saying, here you go, that he turned and looked and was like, oh, are you good? And I said, yeah, I just let me keep working, because I told myself, you know, if there's any type of scene, especially for the past few occurrences of things that have happened, I don't want to put a target on my back. So it's almost like you have to play their game to get anywhere. But if you play their game, then they're winning. It's lose-lose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you have to have this armor on, and what I've sort of rectified in my mind at least, is that, the higher up I've gotten in my career, I then just try to lead by example and set healthier and better precedents and hope that at least in my little small corner of the corporate world, I'm making an improvement or a difference, and I think that's really all we can do, especially in male-dominated industries, because we're not going to change these issues overnight or in the next year or in the next decade. They are deeply, deeply systemic, and more so in industries like finance, again, because they are so much more antiquated and allowed to do so. If anything, they flourish by doing so, and so it's like all we can really hope for is to, as we move up in leadership into better roles, to try to be the women that we wish we had had when we were younger in our careers Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And talking about setting that example actually reminded me of something else my boss had said, which I wasn't planning on talking about today, but I feel like it's very relevant. And I was promoted two years in a row, which I was told never happens. It turns out I was the first woman to be promoted at the company two years in a row. I was the first woman to transition roles from a back office to more sales front office position in the firm, which I thought was very interesting. I had a lot of people who would tell me that, you know, they found it very encouraging that they weren't going to be stuck in a position. It was all women who would tell me that, you know, and I didn't realize that the women weren't being promoted as quickly. I already knew there was, you know, a more hostile environment, but I hadn't noticed the promotion track being different. I had known about a pay cut track being different, which I did address that as well. But moving internally to a different role I found out had never happened. If it wasn't working out, they would just let them go. But for men, they would make accommodations. They would say let's shift your teams, let's shift your departments, let's do this, the front office facing role that I had. They had reached out to me to do the transition and so I had to go through an entire interview process again, even though I already worked at that company, which I thought was very interesting, because a month later there was a male who transitioned into the same role as me. He didn't have to go through an entire interview process at a company he already worked for. I had to.
Speaker 2:Why is that? I think it's because I am a woman and they're nervous about just anything. I don't know what it is about those finance men. I don't think they will ever trust us. But so the second time I was promoted, the two years in a row, I was promoted to a leadership role and we had a very important investor coming in to the office and once a week I have it at my current job. I had it at my previous jobs. I have an hour block once a week because I go, I have a virtual therapy session. I have it. I need it. Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 1:No shame.
Speaker 2:No, no shame at all, and I always had just doctor out of office and no one's ever questioned it, no one's ever brought it up. So this investor's coming in and my boss says not the nice one, but the other one. I guess I should have never referred to that other man as my boss. He's always been more of a mentor role since he was so high up. So this guy, he said hey, I see you have a time block. It says you're going to the doctor. I see that it's on there every week. This investor's coming in, can we move things around? I said, sure, no problem, moved things around. After the meeting it was about two days later he pulled me aside and said why are you going to the doctor every single week, just out of, isn't that illegal? Sorry, I, are you going to the doctor every single week.
Speaker 1:Isn't that illegal? Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt, but nope, I'm such a mental health advocate I'm like cringing in my core right now. Isn't that illegal?
Speaker 2:I have another one after this that will make you cringe even more, unfortunately. And so he said you know why are you going to the doctor every week? And I said and I'm a very open, honest I will tell anyone anything if they ask. It just doesn't bother me. I feel like the more upfront you are about it.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I feel like that's my way of normalizing something mental health wise Even if someone's not comfortable telling me, they can kind of see. Oh well, she feels comfortable talking about it, so I could have a safe space. And I said to him you know, oh, I have doctor there because I didn't want to just put therapy, but it's for my, it's. I'm seeing my therapist and he immediately, you know, gets just bored, plank still, and he said is there something wrong?
Speaker 1:No, no, no. We're far and long enough in society that man knows better he knows, better Does he live under a rock? That's like an HR violation. I'm pretty sure I think it is.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure it is he, you know. He said are you okay? And he said if anything's going on, you know we can chat about it. And I said everything's fine, this is something that I just need and I have it. And he said well, this isn't going to interrupt your work day, is it? And I said has it yet? That is exactly what I said has it yet. And I said you haven't noticed prior to now that I even was doing these? I've been doing it since I've started at the firm, which at this point it had been over five years. It's just now getting brought up. And he said well, as long, I guess, as it doesn't interrupt your work day. And he said well, as long, I guess, as it doesn't interrupt your work day, he brings in. We had another person on our team. She was very high up in the leadership level too. He brought her into the office and said did you know that this was happening? And she said yeah, I also go to therapy. I go to therapy with my husband. And he said are you?
Speaker 1:okay, no therapy with my husband and he said, are you okay?
Speaker 2:no, but also kudos to her for being a good ally and just being like yeah, like matter of fact about it she was very matter of fact about it, didn't bat an eyelash, which I appreciate, never brought it up again, which I appreciate. She knows that it's not interrupting anything. No one needs to know about it to begin with. And yes, I'm openly sharing it with you. But asking me like, do you need it, do you have to have it, was just so wild to me of this could be interrupting things.
Speaker 1:And also asking are you okay? Because just the way you're telling the story, it seems clear he's not asking are you okay? From like a genuine place of concern, but more like, oh, like touching you with a 10 foot pole. Like are you okay and sir, that is not. I'm pretty sure that's not legal and I know people in HR who listen to this podcast and I cannot wait for them to message me and be like absolutely not, we're shutting that down 2022. Absolutely 2022.
Speaker 2:So I was in another state. I had moved to the West Coast and I was having issues getting used to being in California during COVID. I was so used to Texas COVID that it was a hardship being shut down in a new city that I don't know very many people. It took a while to clock that he didn't mean the genuine are you okay? And it was very oh, this is just a work. Is this going to be a disruption? And he was very good. I mean, he's a people person. He's a very good people person.
Speaker 2:And at that time I thought, oh, he's thinking about me was not the case, which rolls into the next story of they were tracking a nice little list that I didn't know about of my acts specifically. And after spending some time in California, I had decided you know, this is not going to work. I need to go back to Texas. I would love to stay in this position if you need to move me back to my old position or if I can no longer work here. You know, I understand I just can't be in California anymore. And they said, no, no, we want to work with you. You're doing so great, let's leave everything as is.
Speaker 2:And my boss. He had approached me and said you know I'm upset that you didn't give it a longer shot, but I understand and let's move you home. So I thought everything was fine. And the following week, after I had moved back to Texas, I get onto a meeting and I immediately get a instant message why are you on this meeting? And I, you know, said it's the Monday morning meeting. What do you mean? We have this weekly meeting. And he said you don't need to be on this. I hung up, had no idea what was happening and this is the same boss who was like yeah, let's get you back to Texas.
Speaker 2:Let's get you back to Texas.
Speaker 2:So, because I could not handle being in California is the way it was, but I was put on medical leave without being told and I was not supposed to be online because I was supposed to get signed off by a psychiatrist that I was mentally okay to work, because they felt like that the transition was messing with work product and he wanted to quote, unquote be extra sure that I was actually okay, which meant a psychiatrist had to give me a written you're all right. Hr never told me. I found out. You know, post meeting it's, I know, that's where you're. All of your HR readers or listeners are probably like oh, my goodness, yeah that was my first thought, like my mind.
Speaker 1:That's where's where I went, like even if there's been someone that's been on my team that I've genuinely been worried about, like you can tell they're burnt out or they're going through something or whatever. I mean, I would just never handle it that way. But you know, even if I really was worried about them, there would be like a lot more heartfelt conversations of like right, making them feel less than or like they lot more heartfelt conversations of like, right, making them feel less than or like they can't do the job, or taking the work from them preemptively, but basically just saying hey, I can kind of see some things are going on.
Speaker 1:You're struggling. How can I help you do your job better so that you don't have to go to that? And if that's what you need to do, it is an option. Right, medical leave is available to you. It is a solution. It doesn't have to be. I'm not forcing it on you, because I think if I even went to our HR and said so-and-so is really struggling and I want to put them on medical leave, they would laugh at me. They'd be like you can't force someone to take medical leave, and you also. That would be a conflict. I don't even think HR would let me have that conversation by myself. I'd be like absolutely not, this is an HR issue, we will handle it.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what just speaks volumes to the higher up you are, you know the more pool you have, especially in finance. I believe at that place at that time, hr was still 70% males, you know, like it's just a male dominated industry in general. So yeah, because I was struggling with the acclimation of living in California during COVID, apparently they they thought it was affecting my work and you know I told them. I said I felt like I was staying ahead of it by saying I can't do this, I'm, I need to go back. I understand the impact of me returning. So here are my op. I'm letting you know that I'm okay with all of these different options. You willingly said no, no, let's make this work.
Speaker 1:And then you turn around the next week and say well, we just want to make sure someone else says that it's going to be OK too. I don't know. I feel like there's a lawsuit somewhere in there. I'm just saying that's crazy, that's so inappropriate, that's so inappropriate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the psychiatrist whenever we met. It was funny because he actually said you know, I just don't really understand the reason we're meeting. And I said me too, because I need to sign this piece of paper. We had a discussion and he said you know? He said what you're experiencing is working 90 hour weeks in a small apartment in a city of people you don't know and there's no way for you to vent it out, and you wanted your friends and family. He said so what any normal person would feel. And he said I'm going to sign this piece of paper, but I am going to put it for the week after for you to start, because you just need to unwind and chill. And he was like it's not. He was like this is making it worse, if anything.
Speaker 2:The fact the psychiatrist said that he was like this is feeding the issue. But he didn't even want to sign it, not because of not wanting me to work, but he was like this is encouraging them, that this is OK. Yeah, he didn't agree with it and I was like let's sign the paper so I can get back to my job. I need a paycheck. But I was just there's no way. I don't know if this has happened with anyone else at the company. But I know for a fact there's no way it's happened with a male at the company. But I know for a fact there's no way it's happened with a male at the company.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've said that same thing many times.
Speaker 2:There's just no way, there's a 0% chance. If it has happened with someone else, that's terrible and I I don't want anyone to have to go through that. But I know for a fact. Yeah, I know for a fact. Yeah, I know for a fact.
Speaker 1:it's not happened with the male there or, if it has happened with the male, it's likely someone who didn't like identify with the like straight, white, right oh, and that, yeah, I mean these offices too.
Speaker 2:They it took them forever to even put you know unisex off brush streams in there because they were fighting that one for a very long time and, from what I remember, I believe only one office finally accommodated to it. I'm not sure about the other ones. I don't really keep in touch with very many people there anymore for a specific reason, understandable. I mean, that type of environment was just all day, every day, and I was so nervous to make any type of movement without getting called out Whenever the oh I had mentioned, you know, knowing for sure that there was a pay cut variance. I had built relationships with my peers and they were making almost twice as much as I was, and when I brought it up, I had all of my facts out on you know a sheet of paper. I said you know these are the responsibilities I'm doing, this is what I'm controlling, this is the type of people that I'm keeping in contact with, this is what employee A is doing and I would list out this is what employee B is doing, listing out I'm doing significantly more than them. At minimum, I should be getting paid the same.
Speaker 2:I did get the pay raise. It took a while, but I did get the pay raise. They did try to tell me that the only reason I was doing more than my job description was because, oh well, you felt inclined to and you wanted to. And I said, no, no one else is doing it, I'm just picking up the work because you wanted to. And I said, no, no one else is doing it, I'm just picking up the work because someone has to. And they said, oh well, because you feel bad. So there goes the emotion once again no, I don't feel bad, it's work that needs to be done and I wanted to help and I also wanted a pay raise. I thought these would connect. You had to sit there and really think about is this going to happen or not? The two people that were making twice as much as me, like I said, were men, and I knew that the peers that were women were also being underpaid. And when I got the pay bump, I have sat down with each person who was in that group and I said this is what I was getting paid, this is what I am getting paid now. You do not have to share with me your information, but I know for a fact you're not getting paid what you should be getting paid. This is the route that I took. If you are feeling like that you're being undervalued, I would recommend taking these steps and because the least I can do is if we have to play their game, we should be getting paid for it. It's how I see it.
Speaker 2:They want you to join these, you know, dei, infinity groups, and. But then if you join the women's group, then if you join the women's group, if you join the women's group, then you get the eye rolls from your peers, from your bosses, from anyone, of when you're getting up to leave for an event and it's a very oh would you business? Mix and mingle. You're going to talk about women's stuff, you're not going to talk about business. And then, if you don't join the group, I feel like it's almost oh well, are you not proud? Are you not like you're really breaking through the glass here, the glass ceiling, and it's almost like even these little groups that they form and try to have to push women forward.
Speaker 2:If you join it, then they're going to be pissed at you. If you don't join it, they're going to be pissed at you. How do you ever win? You don't win and it's frustrating. But I think what's more frustrating is the fact that I don't think, with finance necessarily, it will ever be a place where women are welcome. If it is, I don't think it will be a bunch of wealthy men running it and then their wealthy sons get to run it, and then those their sons get to run it, and it's really hard to push through.
Speaker 2:I understand that. I'm one, you know, of very few women who are in this space. I understand what I'm getting myself into. Don't use things like emotion as a weapon against me, especially when I'm a top performer. I think that's the thing that always kind of makes me look back and laugh at everything was I was always in the top 1% of performing. It would show you know things against your peer. It would compare you. Just high level and I was always exceeds expectations, exceeds expectations. Yet I can't speak up in meetings. I move home. You know all of that medical thing occurs, my boss asking me if I'm okay because I'm taking therapy sessions, it's. It's just so interesting to me that I should even be forced to battle those things Because I can guarantee you, all they're thinking about with the guys is just like oh, how was your weekend. It was great. Let's get down to business. And if they had a doctor appointment weekly reoccurring on their calendar, I know for a fact he wouldn't have asked them what it was about. He would say oh, that must be important.
Speaker 1:So going off. That I know. You know you're not going to sugarcoat it, I get it. The industry is what it is. We cannot change the finance bro world, but we also don't want to tell women to not go into this industry if that's what they're excited about or passionate about and I know you are someone who has found a way to persevere and I imagine it's finding those female allies getting to a place that works for you. And so I would love to hear, given the way the industry is, what is your advice for women who do want to be able to somewhat thrive without losing their sanity in finance?
Speaker 2:I would definitely say it's. Finding the female allies is the number one thing. If you feel in your gut that there is something that is off, you need to trust that instinct. I finally trusted that instinct. I left my role, I went to a new position at a new company that is a lot more accepting that. I am not running into these issues the way I was before and I've learned that, having these female allies, you can perform well and really make a difference in the finance industry. Just because you're a woman, it's not going to stop you, it just is. It all depends on your support system. I wish I could say it was off the work product too, but I've learned it's the support system around you and it's not just who you're reporting to, but who is underneath you as well and setting the right type of example of being someone they can go to for advice or just anything work related and not feeling pigeonholed.
Speaker 1:That's super fair. And hey, you know, I encourage you, as well as any woman in finance, listening who's to say that y'all cannot one day own and run your own email led firms in accounting or finance. Slowly, these other industries did evolve because more and more women were in leadership and making change, and I would love to see you and all the other women one day taking all of it into your own hands and saying you know what? Who's to say I can't run the game. That's the plan. Amazing, I can't wait to see it. Well, thank you so much. I was so honored to have you on.
Speaker 2:Thank you, this was great. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being part of this week's conversation. For more information and additional resources, be sure to visit rachelandpaulacom slash podcast for the complete show notes. To visit rachelandpalacom slash podcast for the complete show notes. And you know the drill make sure to subscribe, leave a review and, if you love the podcast, make sure to share it with another working woman in your life. You never know who could use the support. Thank you again for spending this time with me, rachel Impala, in this episode of Working Girl. Until next time, keep breaking barriers, shattering stereotypes and redefining success on your own terms. I'll see you soon.
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