Working Girl
Join us on Working Girl, as we dive deep into the complexities of gender bias in the workplace. Each week, we'll bring you candid conversations with real women sharing their experiences and strategic insights from experts who have been in the trenches.
Whether you’re a fierce feminist already clued into how gender inequality can shove a wrench in your career, or you’re only just starting to spot how those sneaky gender inequality hurdles have been tripping you up, this show offers the validation, support, and tactics you need to help you reclaim your career.
Working Girl
Season 1 (OLD FORMAT) - Embracing Femininity with Samantha Martin
This episode is part of our first season, which focused on gender bias in the corporate world. The show has since evolved to focus on women on the front lines of social justice.
What if embracing femininity could be the key to breaking gender bias in the workplace? Join us as we engage in a compelling conversation with Samantha Martin, a trailblazing lawyer, speaker, activist, and founder of the Femish Organization. Samantha introduces us to the concept of femmephobia—the systemic regulation and devaluation of femininity that crosses gender boundaries. Drawing from Dr. Rhea Ashley Hoskin's pioneering research, we uncover how this bias impacts not just women but anyone who expresses femininity, and how these insights can shed light on the pervasive issues of gender bias in professional settings.
Reflecting on personal experiences and societal influences, Samantha and I discuss how femmephobia shapes our choices from childhood interests to professional attire. We emphasize the importance of empowering traditionally feminine traits and highlight the need for consent and choice in breaking free from gendered expectations. Together, we explore how rigid societal norms undervalue female-dominated professions and discuss the challenges women face in corporate environments where masculine norms often dictate behavior and dress codes.
Our conversation also delves into the psychological impacts of gender bias in networking and professional settings. Samantha shares her insights on creating inclusive spaces that allow women to express themselves freely. We conclude by advocating for gender education and awareness, emphasizing the need for unlearning biases and fostering empathy and inclusion. Tune in to this eye-opening episode as we push boundaries, embrace diverse identities, and work towards a more equitable and inclusive world for all.
If you loved this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with your fellow working women!
Welcome to Working Girl, your safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace. I'm your host, rachel Impala, aka the Gender Bias Coach. I've witnessed firsthand the insidious effects of gender bias on women's careers. What's worse, no one is talking about it. That's why my mission is to end the stigma surrounding these conversations and to create a culture of openness and empowerment. It's time for women to stop shouldering these burdens alone and start receiving the validation and support they deserve. So sit back, relax and welcome to the ultimate support group for working women. Welcome back to another episode of Working Girl. Today. I am honored to have a true trailblazer and fierce advocate for feminine equity joining us.
Speaker 1:Samantha Martin is not only a badass lawyer, a speaker, an activist, but she is also the founder of the Femish Organization, which is a groundbreaking movement that is challenging societal norms and helping to dismantle the toxic effects of femininity bias. The mission of the Femish Org is nothing short of revolutionary. They aren't just taking on gender equality, but they are really dissecting the very essence of femininity bias and gender policing Through research, education and fearless advocacy. Research, education and fearless advocacy. Samantha and the Femish Org are rewriting the script on what it means to embrace femininity authentically. They're not just sparking conversation, but they are really igniting a movement that is helping to reshape societal values and ignite true policy change. So let's get this intro over with, because I am so ready to dive right in with you. Welcome, samantha, I'm so excited to have you on.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I'm so excited to be here and talk about all of these important crazy things.
Speaker 1:Yes, so diving right in. I want to start right away with femphobia and I will be really honest with you I had never actually even heard this term until I discovered your content online, and then I discovered the Femish organization, realized you two were connected, that you founded it, and it just unearthed a wave of education on content that I didn't realize was so intricately interwoven with my very own niche.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, no, a lot of people have never heard of this word before. I didn't until I started sort of researching my own experiences and when I came across it, I was like, oh my God, there's a name for this, this thing that we all experience, and there's over 30 years of research on this. That, of course, experiences its own bias, which is why most people have never heard of this word.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually, on my very first episode, said I had the same exact experience with gender bias. I was really struggling to explain what I was going through when I would complain about it to managers and they were like you don't even know how to describe it. How can we take it seriously? And when I did research and I discovered the term gender bias, it was such a light bulb moment for me. Yeah, so can you tell the audience a little bit about what femphobia is?
Speaker 2:Yes. So the definition of it, femphobia, is the systemic regulation and devaluation of femininity which places limits on who can be feminine and how, and this has been defined by Dr Rhea Ashley Hoskin through her work. She's a sociologist, feminist in Toronto. She's a femme lesbian, and so a lot of her experience and research has been around how the issue of bias against femininity transcends gender, transcends sexual orientation, against femininity transcends gender, transcends sexual orientation. And yet they're all related, they all affect each other. So, yeah, that's what makes it so different than sexism, misogyny. I get that question a lot like what's the difference? And it's because this isn't just men versus women, this is not just women experience femophobia. Everybody does. Anybody who does anything that is labeled as feminine by society will experience this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I mean we'll get into this more in the episode.
Speaker 1:Obviously it plays a huge intersection with gender bias and in the workplace.
Speaker 1:I can't wait later to dive into a lot of the rhetoric around women needing to leave their feminine traits behind and act more masculine to succeed in the workplace. But first I actually wanted to just comment that I didn't realize how ingrained femphobia was in me as someone who considers themselves a raging feminist, someone who is all about women, loves women, supports women. I was thinking all the way back to childhood and realizing how I used to think when I was young like I want to be a cool girl, so I'm not going to like pink and I'm not going to tell people I like Barbies, like very little, and thinking it was cool to be like Joey on Dawson's Creek and be the tomboy, you know. And I think that's honestly why I struggled to have a lot of female friends growing up, because I just never took the time to appreciate and understand what being a woman and girl could mean and the empowerment in just being a woman or girl or someone who identifies are a woman or girl, and it really shows how truly systemic.
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, I mean. And it starts like you said. It starts from when you're little, right, the way that you're not only raised right, but the images you're seeing. And you know, we recently did our first study ever when we looked at advertising for toys, and I decided to have Femish do it because I was looking at Christmas toys for my own kids and I noticed, shopping for my son, that all of the toys that he was asking me to look up and show me a video on this and let's look up this More of them not all of them, it's still not a great number, but more of them had gender diverse marketing than the toys that are stereotypical girl toys, and it's right.
Speaker 2:So I was born in the 80s, I grew up in the 90s, so I was a tomboy. I played sports, definitely fell into that cool girl trope of like, oh, I'm not going to go do that, I'm playing basketball at recess and I'm doing this. I would wear my JNCO jeans and it really does stay with you on some level. Even when I did get more comfortable being a little bit more feminine, some of that still stayed there. When I first started Femish, I immediately just thought back to when I had my first daughter, and she was probably three years old, and I took her shopping for shoes and she wanted these pink, sparkly, light up shoes. Because why not? Why wouldn't you want?
Speaker 2:those right and I was like, look at these plain Converse shoes. That's what I wanted her to get. And I didn't force them on her. I didn't like you know, like no, we're not getting those, we're getting these. I did buy the pink sparkly shoes but like I reflect that and I was like why was I so like she wants those? You know, because it's.
Speaker 2:But that's how ingrained it is, that's how sneaky it is right, we all have this level of unconscious bias for so many different things, and femophobia is definitely a culprit of this that so many people have.
Speaker 2:And I think that's one of the obstacles I have found when I talk to other feminists, in that it almost, I think, sometimes for them it feels like but if it's okay for women to do this, if it's okay for other people to do this, isn't that what we were fighting against? Having to do that? If it's okay for other people to do this, isn't what we were fighting against having to do that. And it comes back to this idea of consent and removing the expectation and the finding yourself valuable in certain things, and there's so many ways to go into this, whether it's makeup or being emotional or maternal or whatnot. So this has definitely been a struggle where people have to really wrap their heads around and be like, wait a second, like I have to sit down and think about this. And that's the whole goal of Femish is just to kind of create this light bulb moment to have people reflect on their own experiences and their thoughts, because once you see it, you can't unsee it, because it's everywhere.
Speaker 1:No, I know, it's so true. I have mostly nieces as well and I remember as they were growing up, you know, looking at the clothes they would love and the toys they would want, and I remember thinking like they're so girly, you know, and in my mind, not like it was a bad thing, but just in my mind, like I couldn't relate to that and I had grown up with my little brother so I was very much used to having that like brother boy dynamic and that was what I thought was cool and I thought that's what made me cool. You know, I was like a rebel or something and I, through your content, was able to really dissect that I wish I had. It makes me sad because I wish I had been able to see.
Speaker 1:I think the issue is that I looked at the sparkly things, the quote unquote girly things, the more feminine things in every stage of my life as being not as empowering or not as cool. And it wasn't until the last year or so that I realized that it's very cool, it's very empowering. There's nothing less empowering about those things. And I started to become hungry to understand. What point did I start thinking, because you're not born thinking that, so I'm like. What point did society teach me that these more feminine traits are not as interesting or empowering or cool? They don't make someone as empowered I can't think of a better word but I just think it's so fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, and it's definitely, like I said, sneaky because it's the way that it's in our TV shows and our movies and our marketing and our movies and our marketing and even in some of the girl empowerment language, one of the things I've noticed is that there's some messaging out there that says girls aren't just this, girls aren't just that. They could be this and this and this, but what they're referring to, what's wrong with just being that? And it always comes down to something super girly that society still devalues as an interest or a hobby or a career, whether it's fashion or makeup, something that seems very stereotypical, pushed on you by the patriarchy. And it's this messaging that women can rise above that. But those things are valid and it's okay if that's what you are. It's not just right. Those are valid interests and hobbies and professions.
Speaker 2:And so even some of the girl empowerment messaging needs to reflect on itself a little bit in the sense of what is this message saying? Because there are people girls, boys, gender nonconforming people who love that stuff and that's okay. So it's yeah, it's this mirror that society has been having everybody look into, which, ironically, has resulted in right, masculine qualities being valued over feminine qualities, which is exactly what the patriarchy wants, right? So we like inadvertently played right into their game and are like helping them a little bit. So we kind of got to just adjust for a second.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you brought that up, because I was just about to say I also think part of it and why I, and I'm sure most women, look at those kind of traits or qualities or roles.
Speaker 1:The reason why we probably looked at them that way is because they were always devalued in society.
Speaker 1:And when you look at a lot of the traits and qualities and roles that are devalued in society and not looked at as cool or as strong or assertive or whatever, it almost always boils down to women or another marginalized group, and that's also something I had never dissected or really thought about.
Speaker 1:You know, I, for example, used to really boast about I'm a really ambitious, hardworking woman, like I want to climb the corporate ladder and be the only woman in the room, and you know I was really proud of that early on, right out of college, and I wish I had taken a beat and thought why would I be the only woman up there? Why does the alternative to that feel so scary to me and why do I feel like there's something wrong with it, like not to say that that's a reason not to go after that path. The whole point of feminism is to have that choice of being able to do either or. But why am I sort of labeling them in my mind as, like one is good and one is bad? Yeah, so it's exactly what you were talking about Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And it's this other level of where homophobia comes in. And what we're doing, right, our productivity and what tasks we are completing to be productive or to be successful, right. And so society decides that anything that can create money and has like monetary value, like that, is male dominated, right? I mean, I think it's wild still that more women are in law school than men. It's been like that for I forget how long years now, right. And yet when you look at how many lawyers are practicing, it's still considered a male-dominated field, because at some point women either leave or they cut their hours down because, right, it's this. Even corporate America, right, same thing.
Speaker 2:Where you've joined this game, they've let you in, they've let you on the field to play, but it's their game, their rules. They have not changed very much besides who they're letting in the door. And so in those situations, everybody is expected to man up to golf, to to get business and network. You don't golf, you're kind of screwed right. And that's like a whole other thing when women have not been allowed to golf for how many years before, while men were able to. And there are men who don't like those things either. There are men who are not the stereotypical businessman, whatever qualities. Society decided to go along with that and so all of those people are affected in those areas. And then you look at the fields that are dominated by women, which are considered women's work, whether it's teaching or nursing or the beauty industry and they are overworked and underpaid and undervalued because society decided that work is less.
Speaker 2:Then it even goes back to being like a stay-at-home parent. I had my first daughter in law school, graduated pregnant with my second and I took a year off and then I shaped my career around them and there were people who could not believe that I just got a law degree, I wasn't using it to its full force, that I wasn't off in some law firm working eight hours a week. And it's hard because there is this balance of I do believe that women should have the ability to be financially independent, especially somebody who's worked with a lot of women, who has talked to a lot of women in a lot of groups. There are so many stay-at-home moms especially who feel trapped because they can't leave a marriage where they're unhappy because they don't have income. So it's this hard balance.
Speaker 2:But at the same time there's this issue of I didn't want to go and work full time and leave my young kids at home. I didn't want to, especially my first. I had such separation anxiety from her and I know it's hard for every mom. It truly, truly is, but I would have had panic attacks every day at work. And so just the way that society is set up and where femophobia kind of comes into play in other areas, is that women don't truly they have some have.
Speaker 2:In order to progress in my career, I have to exist as men have for decades, where they're not worried about taking care of kids, they're not worried about taking care of a house, and it's like that's not how it should be, like we shouldn't be forcing anybody to make choices that they don't want in order for them to be able to leave a relationship that's not working for them, and that's where we're at in society. So that was sort of another light bulb moment for me and like, okay, what we're doing isn't working. Also, we've made progress in what jobs we can have. We're allowed into schools, having bank accounts, owning property, all of that stuff. Great, great, great stuff. But if you don't have the true respect and choice of it, we're doing something wrong. We need to recreate the system because there's too many biases, including femmophobia and so many other things that go into how the system works. So we've got to go back to the beginning.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I often talk about women needing to redefine success on their own terms, and whenever I challenge my clients on this, they're always like what do you mean? There's like one success it's the glass ceiling, that's it. It's getting the seat at the table. And I'm like no, it doesn't have to be those definitions of success or that singular definition of success was defined by men for men, in a world built by men for men.
Speaker 1:And to your point, this was at a time when the corporate world was really coming into its own, that women weren't working in the corporate world yet. Even when they were allowed to start and they were working as office workers and secretaries, it was still very minimal. It was like the office housework, and they've always had to play. We've always had to play by the men's rules. They were the ones who didn't have to worry about parental leave or really any necessary flexibility required of a working parent. Right? They just got to do whatever they want and show up to dinner on the table.
Speaker 1:And I'll always tell my clients that's the success you want to go after. Is the person that literally relates to you on not a single aspect of your life, a person that likely didn't share a single value that you would aspire to or define your own life by. And it's always so like opening and also gut-wrenching for them, because then it kind of makes them reassess their entire career. And I make them do this because I went through the exact same thing, but I learned that on my own. I worked incredibly hard to climb the corporate ladder.
Speaker 1:I had achieved almost all of my career dreams, and when I kind of looked around me when I got to that point, I was like wait a minute, this isn't what I expected, this isn't what I thought.
Speaker 1:And I also was like this took almost everything from me in order to achieve this. And if you strip away the privilege that I had and not having a child that was dependent on me, maybe not having familial bills or people dependent on me not needing to be home by a certain time, all of these other aspects and privileges, just being who I was, like most women couldn't have done this. So, and if it laid me this bare, you know if I was like dead at this point, getting to this point, no wonder I'm the only one in the room. And that's kind of what spawned all of this, because I just realized like not only does there have to be another way, like we're going to pave another way, because it's just not sustainable and it's mind boggling that it's 2024 and we're still having to even have these conversations still having to even have these conversations?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and it's this whole even kind of capitalist push too right. That's why I also love the conversation around sort of not kind of like the anti-hustle culture, and you know so. And it's hard because I work with a lot of people who are starting businesses and I love especially women. I love working with women who are starting businesses because you're excited and you have these ideas and they do take a lot of work and even just like especially when you're the business owner, right, the thinking of marketing and content and whatever product or service you're putting out there is so much to it.
Speaker 2:But hopefully the goal is to get to a point where you can enjoy life, which is another reason why I think we even saw what in the last two years the amount of companies that have been started by women. They're starting their own companies. I think that has to do with it. I'm working hard and moving up, up, up up, but where am I getting to? I'm still boxed in. Why wouldn't I go out and start something on my own, which I love?
Speaker 2:Because the other whole issue of working your way up in male-dominated fields and running countries and anything that involves being in a manager position or C-suite or just a leader of some sort, involves the value of masculine qualities. Right, we've decided that that's what makes a leader, that's what makes a boss or a manager, and yet we have all of this data that shows that women who are running companies are more successful and their employees are happier. There's even a study that compared the traditional way of mentoring versus what was called femtoring and utilizing what society considers feminine qualities in the mentorship process, and it just shows over and over again how much more productive and what better quality of service or better experience people have at work when there is empathy and understanding, and this is really should not be shocking, right, and that's what we're, I think, a lot of people where the definition and expectation of how people should be acting at work is still missing. That's it's still so masculine focus and with this masculine default. And so, you know, when I hear from companies that say like, oh, we've got two women in a C-suite and we've got this many women managers, I want to be like great, that means nothing to me.
Speaker 2:How are they being treated? How are they being valued? How are they being evaluated? Yeah, and that's where the true change happens. It's not just some quota with numbers like, oh look, we're doing good, we have this many women there, and it's like well, how are they feeling there? And just all of these other aspects of how women should be in the workplace. And not only that.
Speaker 2:When we talk about homophobia, how are you applying those things to other people too? Because everybody has a different personality, different needs at home, and when we treat people like humans, they tend to stay longer and, you know, it just helps make society better as a whole. Right, you have happy people who aren't killing themselves at work from overworking themselves, you know. And then they come home and they're crabby, and then they're crabby to their family, or they're crabby to the barista at Starbucks or the cashier at Jewel. It's just this thing that keeps going and going, and I think most women would say it's not surprising that those things actually play out better. But yet society as a whole has not caught on yet.
Speaker 1:Yes, and as you were speaking about the kind of wave of women who have started opening up businesses and kind of changed their work dynamic over the last few years, it reminded me of a lot of research. I read that during the pandemic, especially during quarantine time, a lot of women although I'm not going to discount how hard it was on moms who were having to work and be teachers at home essentially, but taking that into account, a lot of research was showing that women were finally getting that flexibility from companies to be able to account for parental time with the work time, because the companies had no choice but to offer them that flexibility because they were working from home. And so these working moms were finally able to see like what was possible and prove that I'm just as strong of an employee, even with this flexibility, as a working mom. And then when offices started requiring them to come back in office and they started losing those flexibilities, started requiring them to come back in office and they started losing those flexibilities that allowed them to actually be a working mom, then they were like, wait a minute, I already proved to you and I thought it was kind of a shame because when this whole rhetoric started about returning to office.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of media coverage around just general disdain from the public about having to go, and I felt like there wasn't enough more specific commentary on how this affected working moms. Yeah, because, yeah, no one wants to go back. I think most of us can all agree, but the people most impacted were those working parents who had greatly benefited and had very much proven that they could do both if they were just given the flexibility and the ability to make their arrangements. That made sense. For example, I have a woman who reports to me. She's a working mom and I'm very much aware of the schedule she needs for school pickup and drop off and while the hours she may need to take off to accommodate those two periods of time may make meeting scheduling and make it more difficult to work with stakeholders in other countries, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you like she's the best I could ever ask for you know like.
Speaker 1:Even if we have to move some meetings around to accommodate school pickup and drop off, it's not like she's taking advantage of it. And I think that's what companies think, like oh, they're going to take advantage of it. It's like, no, they'll still do the work and they'll do it probably three times as well as anyone else. They just need the flexibility. And so hearing you talk about those women who are suddenly pivoting, really it made me remember that data and like I'm not surprised, honestly, because so many women were probably like I did prove myself yeah, you're, you're still going back on it. So like, why would I sit here and support you when I can support my own business streams?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. And why not? When you can create your own schedule and run things the way that you have a vision for it or do the things that you wish were done for you for other people? Yeah, it's really a no brainer, which is why I especially love working with women who are starting their own companies. They're literally my favorite to work with the vision, the excitement. It's the best time that I have. I love that.
Speaker 1:So let's switch gears a little bit and dive a bit more into, kind of the cross section between your work and then gender bias in the workplace. So in what ways do you think that assumptions and stereotypes about femininity impact people in the workplace, especially if it's in terms of, like, career advancement or even workplace safety?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, so the whole reason I started Femish and started researching what led me to the word femophobia is because my first job that I took after passing the bar, I was told to dress less feminine in order to be taken more seriously as an attorney. And I was told this by another woman attorney who got this advice from an older male attorney, and it was even the advice even continued to say that if I was working with an assumingly heterosexual couple, that I also wouldn't want the wife to be jealous that the husband was meeting with me, so I should watch what I'm wearing, even what earrings I have in my ears. And I was shocked. I honestly thought she was telling me this story as like a you won't believe what some guy told me one time and she was passing it along as good advice and I would. Just it just blew me away.
Speaker 2:And then when I that's what made me kind of sit and reflect and research this. And so what I started to notice, at least in the legal fields, is that you know, when I go to like networking events if I went to co-ed ones held by bar associations and whatnot everybody was very stereotypical professional attire, which is one issue which just perpetuates gender bias. Right, because professional attire and professional behavior is so masculine leaning right. So we know, when I'm at the co-ed ones, everybody is very neutral colors buttoned up, minimal makeup for women, I would even say like minimal or more quiet jewelry, and it's just like what you would think a room full of attorneys would seem like. That's what it is.
Speaker 2:And then when I go to the events that are all women attorneys, right, color cleavage, lipstick, right All the things that society has decided women do to attract men and to and not be objectified first and not have somebody look at them and think you don't look professional, you don't look competent. And so one it's one stifling what people are comfortable wearing. And there's so much research too that goes into as frivolous and trivial as some people want to say our outward appearance is. And that's not even getting into the toxicity of the beauty industry, right, toxic, that still exists. That is still an issue and it's still a thing.
Speaker 2:But the way people dress and present themselves does play into how they feel and how confident they are, right, and every single person I don't care how not into looks you are, everybody has something that they wouldn't want to wear, that they wouldn't feel comfortable in, and so it just shows how related it is to how we feel throughout the day. And so one it's causing people to have to, especially women, really think about what they're wearing in the morning, right, whether it's, maybe you're fine with the typical professional attire, but then you're still, you're thinking about well, how low is this shirt? Are these pants too tight. I mean, I'm somebody who hates wearing a bra. I hate it, but I have to watch, like, how obvious is it if I'm not wearing one in the shirt? Or you know, or, or you know, I have to grab one that I know is going to have a little bit more coverage if it's cold in the office, or something like that. The extra things that women have to think about if you're wearing no makeup. I've had friends have comments made to them if they were wearing no makeup at work saying that they were like oh my God, you look so unprofessional right now, you look so tired, so it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Speaker 2:But this whole policing about it of what you look like is number one. It's added stress and the stereotypes that we attach to the way people look is something that takes up too much space in people's heads, whether you're the one judging or the one being worried that you're going to get judged. So there's that right. And then gender bias also plays out in kind of what we were talking about before, where it's your qualities and the way that you do business and the way that you talk to people. So whether you're the perfect example of it really is like I mean how I grew up learning or hearing people talk about a nice firm handshake, right, like that's the mark of you're doing business, or like just how important a firm handshake is, but that's such a dude thing to say, like why does that matter?
Speaker 2:You know like it's so. And to think about just the way that all of this is built. Yeah, I mean, even when it comes down to parental leave, right, or God. There's just so many things the way that networking events are set up I know I mentioned golf earlier, but just how certain businesses are run on this idea that there's so many corporate golf events and yet so many women especially don't feel comfortable going. And golf is not a sport that you can just jump in for fun, right, like when if you go and you suck, people get annoyed because you're holding up the game. So it's not something you can just like you'd feel so awkward or like you're inconveniencing somebody. I know I would anyways if I would had to go be serious golfing with people On the flip side, though, I think there's also the.
Speaker 1:what hurts women is when men will just be like but we're going golfing, so obviously you wouldn't want to go.
Speaker 1:And it's like sometimes, like they forget, like women can golf too. It reminds me like there was a TikTok or an Instagram reel recently that went viral, of like a professional female golfer who was like practicing at a range, and like a man came up and started correcting her form and she was just like uh-huh, okay, and was just like treating her like an imbecile. And then she happens to be one of the top golfers in the world and so it's also. It's so weird. It's like the same damned if you do, damned if you don't. On the flip side, she's still being judged for liking golf. Yes, so it's so strange.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned the traits about people calling things out at the office something I always would hate as if I wasn't feeling well and I didn't wear makeup, when people would ask oh my gosh, are you okay? You look so tired and like I wasn't okay. But I just don't appreciate that because a woman's not wearing makeup, something must automatically be wrong with her. Yeah, unless you're like very good friends, you have no business asking a woman like if she's okay based on her looks. You know, it's so bizarre to me. I just I've never understood it. I really haven't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think society is way too comfortable commenting on how somebody looks like, and it's there's even times where they meet it as a compliment. But like, just it perpetuates these like toxic ideas. Like I mean, I remember, after having you know each of my kids, somebody being like oh you look great. And like, oh, like, when did you have? Oh you look great, and don't get me wrong, at the time I enjoyed that. Somebody said that. But like it's, once you kind of again reflect and analyze how society operates, you're like, but that's pushing this idea that if I didn't look like that, I wouldn't look great number one, and that the whole bounce back. And so even when you comment on somebody's appearance, even if it's positive, sometimes it's reinforcing this negative, toxic cultural thing of oh you look good because you did this and so it's not that I think that society shouldn't give people compliments, because I do think that it can be done in a beautiful way, but we haven't learned that yet. But definitely anything negative it just shouldn't come out of your mouth. If you're thinking something, then that's something that's just so pushed by society. I say this to my kids all the time and yet they'll still like I mean again, my oldest is nine, so they're still learning. I'm like, oh, but we don't come into that, even if it's not negative or positive. They'll just like, oh, this, this, this Like, oh, no, going to be dependent on it's unlearning, it's unlearning all of this stuff.
Speaker 2:And because it's harder now, right, it's harder that I feel like when it's so direct and obvious, like clearly discrimination, people are like, yes, that, right there, I see it.
Speaker 2:That's an issue. When it's more passive or more leans towards homophobia, people have a harder time seeing it and acknowledging how big of an issue it is. And I think that people have a hard time seeing how so many of these issues maybe one situation, seems like such a small thing, like that's not a big deal, like you're going to complain about that, like, stop it. There are bigger things going on in the world but they're all attached to each other, and so it's like, maybe femophobia based off of you know somebody who was assigned male at birth painting their nails in public. Like, oh, somebody made a comment that you painted your nails, whatever, no big deal. Maybe that seems like nothing to you, but when you see how related it is to gender-based violence or people losing their jobs, or the intersectionality of it, of depending on the person's race, class, disability, and seeing how that ripples out into their lives. It just the big picture of it has to be learned in order to realize why every single little instance needs to be talked about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it reminds me a lot of gender policing. Yes, how do you see that tying into all of this? Because, I'll be honest, I understand the term, I understand the concept, but then it can get so convoluted, I think, especially when politics start coming into play and then the discourse on that gets on media. But it does really hurt and affect people who lean more feminine, and I'm curious for your take on that as well that anybody who's male beside male at birth needs to act like this, and it's all masculine qualities.
Speaker 2:And then the opposite, right, anybody beside female at birth needs to act like this. It's all feminine qualities. And so the gender policing of making sure you stay in your box of qualities that you're supposed to have. You know, if somebody starts doing something that doesn't fit into that box and they're like oh no, no, no, you're not doing that, you're not doing that, right, you have to do it this way. I mean, it just reinforces gender normative behavior, reinforces heteronormative behavior. We even see this, or maybe it's not necessarily. It's almost like gender policing. There's got to be a word for it. I don't know the word for it, but, for example, if there's a lesbian couple, one of them is assumed to be masculine, one of them is assumed to be feminine. Same with two gay men, right? And it's this idea that the two exist for each other and they don't exist.
Speaker 1:You know, they are created for each other, which there's no alternate solution that could exist.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So gender policing is just perpetuating all of these false ideas. So the other half of that is that when society is policing femininity one, it's policing in a way of like oh, this belongs to sign female at birth. All of these qualities are supposed to be over here. If you're not, that you shouldn't be having that. The idea is that it's going to dilute your manhood, right, and the manhood that you should be proud to have. You should want this, you were born with this. Why would you be doing anything to dilute it? But then to have, you should want this. This is we. You were born with this like. Why would you be doing anything to dilute it? But then god forbid, we dilute your manhood, yes, yes, but right.
Speaker 2:It's like society with, like gender polices women to be a certain level and a certain type of femininity, because they know it's treated a certain way. It's like it's all tied together. We're going to keep you in your place in this box, thinking you can only do these things, thinking you have to do these things, and here's the characteristics that we know society will judge you on and expect these things from you. So you're going to just stick with that. And so I always like to point out the difference between femininity and patriarchal femininity, because doing anything feminine does not mean that you've been brainwashed or duped by the patriarchy. For sure that exists. For sure it takes self-reflection, but there's so many examples of things. Right, women should wear makeup, but it should be the right amount of makeup, right? There's nothing too crazy. Now we don't have to take you swimming on our first date to make sure we can see your face, like all these things. Right, the clothes you wear. Right, there's a certain level of modesty. That's expected. You should be maternal and motherly and if you have kids, you should want to be home with them 24 seven and enjoy every second of it. Don't you dare, at me, say that you need a break or that you need help.
Speaker 2:It's not just that femininity is giving into this societal, gender normative expectation, it's doing it. It's a marketed way and it's a very regulated way. And it's not to say that any of those things can't be valid expressions on their own right, and that's where gender policing can be kind of fought against right, if we can make these choices because we want them, because we like them, not because someone else finds value in us because of them, not because we want people to look at us a certain way, but because we actually like these things, then it won't matter what comments people make to you and you can kind of fight against somebody trying to police you. The hard part is doing that sometimes is such a privilege right? If you're at work and you're somebody, maybe you want to dress a certain way or act a certain way, or you're not gender nonconforming or a man and you feel comfortable doing something feminine. There are people who, whether it's a certain situation or their job or a relationship, who truly don't feel safe doing those things, and so to be able to do one as a privilege. But that's why it's so important for us as a society to work on it and self-reflect and the people who can do that to be examples and kind of break the mold so that it can change how other people feel.
Speaker 2:I love the example of where did I see it? Little boy in his class wanted to paint his nails and he was too nervous to. He said the other boy was going to make fun of him but then, like one of the coolest boys in the class, came to school and painted his nails and then the kids were like, oh, that actually does look pretty cool. And then all of a sudden, like that boy was more comfortable going to school with his nails painted. And then all of a sudden, like that boy was more comfortable going to school with his nails painted. And so it takes people like that, who aren't afraid, who can you know, have the ability to work around other people's expectations and maybe can handle a little bit of consequence if it comes their way. You know, more people like that break the mold. I think then we'll see more true self expression, true identity of people being who they really are and having those things valued and respected. That's the goal anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get that. I think, whether it's clients or people who are in my workshops, I'll always inevitably have like two types of women who will come up to me. It'll either be women who are like fierce feminists they are already clued in and they are ready to like start, you know, breaking barriers and shaking the status quo and they'll get really frustrated, like because I'll give all these tips right on how to create change in your organization or within your own department, and here are things you can do, and sometimes I kind of tame them a bit, and so these like very outspoken women are like you're not telling me what to do or what to say specifically. It's frustrating and I have to remind them, while it's incredible that you're at a point in your career and or life where you are ready to be loud and outspoken and challenge the status quo and that's where I'm at too. I wasn't always there and I would bet you weren't always there either there are so many other people who, for whatever reason, there are so many other people who, for whatever reason, whatever place they're at in life or in their career, are still very scared to push back or stand up for themselves.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's just a courage issue or confidence issue, and so I'll often tell those more outspoken women like the best thing you can do if you're already there is start living how you want to be treated and demonstrating by example and setting a precedent around you, because that will make those maybe more shy or more nervous or just maybe less experienced women, it'll give them more of a foundation to start from, or maybe it'll just give them a little courage to say, oh, okay, she's saying something, maybe I can too, and that can be really powerful. Like you may feel like I'm not giving you the tools to. You know, flip the table and start a revolution, but you can start a revolution by demonstrating what it means to be a woman who's ready to say something and stand out and speak against issues, because you are like laying the path for the other women behind you who aren't there yet but will one day be, who will one day be ready to join you arm in arm, and that's powerful, that's very powerful, and I think that if I hope that women will hearing this, if they are that kind of woman where they're like I'm there, I'm ready, you know, like what we write at dawn what, where do I go? Don't lose sight of the power you have in being, that influence for other women that you may not even know. They may not even be women you speak to or have even noticed in your life or job, but I guarantee you people are noticing and respecting how you're approaching things and who knows, the more outspoken you are or the more that you demonstrate these traits or stand up to adversity, they may then finally garner the strength to privately pull you aside and be like, hey, I really admire what you're doing, or that you're standing up for yourself, like I would love to be mentored by you or just be friends. You never know, it could lead to a new ally, and so I just hope people don't discount that.
Speaker 1:I think it's similar with me. I've talked about this on a previous episode. I used to get really frustrated with my friends and be like why is there no woman with enough clout in the company who's standing up and saying these things aren't okay? And my friends were like that's you, you're doing that, you're that person. And it was so eye-opening to me. I was like, oh my God, I have become that person and I didn't even realize. And once I realized it, it was so empowering because then I realized how many more people I could help and that that actually was making a huge impact beyond what I thought traditional impact would be.
Speaker 2:Yes, when I think doing that in itself right I think maybe too many women don't realize this but just speaking your mind and sharing your opinion is a revolution, right? Because we're expected not to or you're labeled as angry or whiny, and it's again pushing. Pushing past what people think of you and when we're so conditioned to care what people think about us, right, as especially as women. But if you can get past that and just share your own experience or what you see, going on like that, so in itself is a revolution. I feel like sometimes I notice that the women who are more nervous are either one super hung up on how people are going to view them or they feel like they don't. They aren't credible enough to start the conversation or to be part of the conversation, and I think that comes from this whole.
Speaker 2:I mean, this again has been talked about in document and about how women tend to think they need to check more boxes to even apply for a job or to be seen as credible or as a valid source for something, when in reality, we all have this experience. Your experience and your life and your feelings and thoughts on it are valid in itself and that's what makes you credible to talk about these things, to share these things, but I feel like that sometimes is an obstacle, whether it's politics or talking about their experience at a job, and so I think that the way around that is to have people who aren't experts, who haven't worked two decades in a field, talking about these things. You know, a perfect example of this I could think of is the financial feminist, tori Dunlap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love her, yes.
Speaker 2:We're just teaching women how to handle their money, going so against everything that Dave Ramsey says and I've read his book and I love Tori Dunlap's perspective because she also talks about the gender bias and how that even plays into how people expect you to budget. It's everywhere, it's affecting your lives everywhere. Actually, my husband read the book because I have financial feminists and I took a picture of him reading. So I was like this is the perfect, like when we can get more men who aren't afraid of taking money advice from a woman in her 20s. That's where we need to go. But so I mean having all of this like just more accessible to people. I think that that's like a whole other, whole other goal of mine. I actually want to create workshops for women who own business and teach them the legal business basics, like basic, like legal business 101 stuff. So I think that so often stops women from opening their mouth or from making a choice or from starting a business, because we feel like we need to know everything in order to do something. And I am so like this, like and I won't even pretend like I rehabilitated myself, like it's. I mean, I'm not as bad anymore, but I remember when I first started practicing law and if I had a phone call I would research the crap out of what we were talking about. I'm like what if they ask me this, I better know the answer. But if they ask me this, I better know the answer and I would over prepare like crazy. And so I've relaxed. I've relaxed now that I'm into my sixth year of practicing.
Speaker 2:There's still so many areas that women do that, where they feel like they aren't prepared enough to just talk about their own experience and, like you said, the more women who do it, the more people who do it. Then hopefully they just join into the conversation. I think on social media it's a little scarier because anybody can comment, anybody can see it. When we have in-person events, the conversation just flows. And the first time we did a conversation-based event I was so nervous. I'm like what if nobody talks? What if nobody wants to share? And we had to cut the conversation off because the room rental was up. We could have kept going, and so it's that trick of getting women in a safe space number one, which the workplace isn't usually a safe space. The internet's not usually a safe space to share these things and then find ways that they can share that message everywhere, because really we all have such similar experiences and in 2024, it's just wild that the same experiences are still happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's exactly why I call this podcast the safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace because, like, no one wants to talk about it. It's so taboo. Yeah, and I've had the exact same experience you were just describing, where when I post content on social media whether it's Instagram, tiktok, linkedin I'll get very, very minimal engagement, right, but then I'll have women who will DM me and say, oh, I really loved that post, but they didn't actually like it or comment. But then when I do workshops and there's a portion in my workshop where it's like kind of an open, breakout group discussion where they talk about their experiences with gender bias, we always have to be like, okay, we have to end it this time, like guys, I know you've got a lot of stories to share, hopefully you've exchanged numbers, but we have to move on. And it just shows that once you get them together and there is that safe space, it really does change the game and I think a lot of it.
Speaker 1:I do think social media helps in the sense that now, as with many other things, I think it brings awareness to issues, in the sense that, for example, like we both described at the beginning of the episode when we were struggling with issues, we went and Googled, we went and researched and that's when we discovered the term for the very thing that we now run businesses for, and we learned that it was're not alone. This is happening to other people and that there are resources out there that can help you, whatever the issue or resources may be. So I always remind myself when I put like a ton of time into a post and then, like I get like two likes, I always remind myself myself like there are probably a lot more people that appreciate it, appreciated it, but they're just afraid to be seen interacting with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not easy, but I I always try to remind myself yeah, no, it's so true, because it's, I mean, it's the easiest way and you know, like all of our, instagram is our most used platform, mainly because that's where I'm most comfortable. Yeah, but it's the best and easiest and cheapest way to get consumable content out there, and so it's like exactly as long as people are seeing it. You know, that's happened so many times to me with people that I know in more. So, people I know in real life, although, like, oh, I saw that post, that Femish or that thing you wrote about this, and they also didn't interact with it, but it's definitely I don't know some kind of public fear about it.
Speaker 2:If I had to guess, I think it would be of being seen either as being seen as a feminist because some people get a little icky with that word or being seen as difficult or whiny or problematic. I'm sure there's truth to the fact that a company or a business or an employer thinks you're going to be too forward with those things or be aware of those things that maybe they wouldn't want to hire you. Which is how I knew that this new law firm that I joined was the right one for me, because they looked at everything I post and were like we want you and I'm like that's what I'm talking about. Awesome, these are my people. So it could also be a test right To see who's like the who's better fit for your life.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. So switching gears a little bit, I really want to highlight the importance of policy change and change in systemic thinking in order to dismantle this bias against gender, against women, against femininity, and how we do all of that to promote true equality. So how does Femish approach, advocacy and policy change in your efforts to dismantle bias against femininity?
Speaker 2:So the main avenue we take is education. There's so much research on this topic of femophobia that it's any sort of work that is seen as feminine. Any sort of research has actually been research on this. Actually, there's research on the fact that any research that's done that even seems feminine is immediately experienced as bias, less likely to get published, the researchers less likely to get work or republished, and so it's really, you know, fighting the fire from inside the flame. So we've got this research that isn't being viewed or, you know, perfect example is that Dr Ray Ashley Hoskin, who I don't think I mentioned this earlier she's the one who defined homophobia, but she's a board member, her wife, she writes for psychology today. They're both PhD power couple researchers in this field. They're amazing. But so they created last year it debuted the first ever scientific journal of femininities, because one has never existed. There was a scientific journal of masculinities. There are some for men, some for women, but there's never been one on femininities, and so this has been like a career goal of theirs, and they achieved it last year. So finally there's a place where all of this research can kind of have a home and be published, and so we take that research and put it in a very consumable way, because most people are not like me.
Speaker 2:I could just read research all day. I read the studies that the studies are talking about. I read an article about a research and then I'm reading the day. I read the studies that the studies are talking about. I read an article about a research and then I'm reading the research. I love reading research. I love researching in general, but most people are not like that. The good thing is that I also love creating content. So we'll take this research and I do it with the help of interns and volunteers I love my interns and we'll take this research and put it into content for social media sometimes also blogs, sometimes in our bi-monthly digital magazine, because there's so much to share and put it and create it so that it's a quick read and just buckles it down as a summary of whatever the study is talking about.
Speaker 2:And so the goal then is to you know the more you know about it, and if you can name the issue, then you can spot it and it's easier to change, because it also overlaps with things, right? Sometimes it's hard to tell, like is that homophobia, or is it homophobia, or is that homophobia or is it misogyny? And so the more you learn about all of them and how they can overlap, you can see what's going on. And so education definitely just getting the information about this out there, trying to issue spot our lives. The other things that we try to do are point out the different ways that it infiltrates the systems right. So, whether it's how male-dominated fields are treated versus women-dominated fields, or women's work expectations of gender normative, heteronormative ways, I would love, love, love it's a goal that I have for Feminist Down the Road to have a lobbying arm where we can have lobbyists dedicated to fighting for regulations that are pro-everyone, fighting against legislation that's not as a 501c3, we have to be careful with that. We can't be political, but we can have an arm off of it one day. That would be a 501, not that we have to get legal with this, but it has to be. There's red tape around this, and so eventually, down the road, I'd love to play more of a role in that, because it is so systemic in the sense of the people who are in governments who have this one perspective are the ones putting that perspective into our laws. Those laws are then affecting everybody's lives, and those same ideals are affecting who even runs for office or wins those offices.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the most powerful examples I can give of homophobia is when people feminize men in power to make fun of them, and it's like if what you're saying is, oh, if they're being girly or they look girly doing this, you're like you're mocking them. But what you're saying is, if you act like a girl, but what you're saying is, if you act like a girl, you're less of a leader. So girls and women are less leaders. Your identities, right, very intersectional and so showing. Giving somebody a platform to say here's how I've experienced this just, I think, creates more of a community around it of like, oh wow, I never thought about it in that way, or I've experienced that too, or mine was kind of like that, but it's in its helps with self-reflection, which is the other thing I like to put together content. Whenever I speak to businesses or universities, I always love to point out that you can't control other people. You can only control yourself. And so to de-bias ourselves.
Speaker 2:There's research on de-biasing as well, and one of the researchers talks about how. There's about four steps, but the last one is admitting that you can be biased, because a lot of people actually have an issue with that, especially if they consider themselves as very progressive. They have an issue with the possibility that they could still have some level of bias inside them, and so they immediately go to defense mode, which I understand. It's being self-aware and catching it and being able to move past it right, because none of us are perfect, and it's not about having perfect thoughts, but about catching yourself and unlearning and self-aware, being comfortable with the fact that you could be biased, but then realizing what your bias is towards. And then the last step is being willing to hear if you're being biased, receiving feedback, right, and that's another thing that people tend to get defensive with, and so I, and that's another thing that people tend to get defensive with, and so I think that's one of the best things that people can work on for themselves in general. What could help with so many issues in the world and society is accepting the fact that you could have some bias and then being okay with somebody, being like hey, what you just said came off like this, or like see it from my perspective, you said this and that's your perspective, but now listen to how that sounded to me and actually listening and caring and reflecting on it and constantly working on it.
Speaker 2:There's other studies that were done that say that people who have watched like a DEI training tend to actually, if they had a bias or discrimination before that, after they watched it, they were more comfortable with it, almost Like oh well, now that I watched this, I'm better now. Or people who voted for Obama but then did racist things were like I'm not racist, I voted for Obama the whole, like I have a black friend or I have a gay friend or I have a mom. I'm not sexist and it's something that if somebody has this one thing that makes them feel like they couldn't be something in their brain, there's no way that they could do anything else. And but there's so many levels to it and I think so many.
Speaker 2:Again, so many people only see sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism all these things as the very blunt, severe version and don't see all these other little things, and it turns into, oh, you just can't take a joke, or that's not what they meant by that Like don't be so sensitive, when really you just need to listen, you need to be open to it. And again, this is unlearning. It's unlearning the defense mechanisms that pop up in your brain and being self-aware, and so I think that, right there, the promotion of unlearning and self-awareness and de-biased training in whatever way that works for you, could be the one of the most powerful things that everybody does for themselves and for whatever cause they're fighting for.
Speaker 1:It's funny because in my workshops they're targeted towards working women and dealing with gender bias in the workplace and I find that the participants are always surprised that the first third is just on unconscious bias. I don't even get into gender bias until a third of the way in and I can always tell by the looks on their faces. They're like am I in the right workshop? I already know what bias, what it is, I don't need this part. Their faces they're like am I in the right workshop? I already know what bias, what it is, I don't need this part. And I do that because I really want to help people understand on both sides of it whether they are the person who feels like they're the victim or they are the perpetrator just how sneaky unconscious bias is and also how many types of unconscious bias there are, and really help them understand that. And something that I love doing and it always cracks me up how they react, because I'll basically say you know, I always ask who here thinks they're biased and like almost no one raises their hand. So then I go through this whole section about what it is and what it's's rooted in and the psychology behind it, and I'll even give examples, like I'll bring up affinity bias and I'll say, you know, it doesn't always have to necessarily be a bad thing. I was like, for example, because most of the workshops are for, like women's groups or organizations, and I'll say, this group is a living example of affinity bias. You are quite literally looking for people that are just like you, that you can relate to for whatever reason, and it doesn't have to be a bad thing, it just means like that's, you're looking for that affinity, and then you can just kind of see the light bulbs going off Like they're like, oh, okay. And so then I asked them again at the very end of that segment, like now here, who thinks they're biased? And everyone raises their hand and I'm like, okay.
Speaker 1:So hopefully you guys are realizing that it's just something that affects every single person, because you're a human being and it starts when you come out of the womb like you can't help it, you're just influenced by everything around you. And the second you realize you're biased, they're biased, the other person's biased. That's the most important step, because A it helps you when dealing with biased people, even if they're quote woke allies who have moments of bias. It helps you maybe better understand and approach it in a way that you feel good about at the end of the day. But it also helps you then understand your own biases and, as you were saying, help you kind of educate yourself and unlearn. People will often ask me well, how do I challenge these biases in myself? I didn't even know I was biased and now you're telling me I am. What do I do? First of all, take a breath. It's okay. It doesn't mean you're a horrible person. It means you're human.
Speaker 1:The most important thing is learning that you're biased and then just educating yourself and being open to that feedback. Exactly what you said, not getting defensive, I was telling a previous guest. You know, I learned actually something from watching an exchange on Instagram between a white woman and a black woman, and it was quite heated and through this exchange, the white woman ended up having to apologize. She had kind of been denying this black woman's experience and she was like oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I can't believe myself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the black woman had basically said you're making the apology all about you. I still don't think you quite get it. And it was such an eye-opening moment for me as a white woman realizing, oh my gosh, how many apologies have I given that I still made the apology all about my feelings and my guilt versus them and that, right, there was a lesson. And if someone does bring this, some behavior to you and they're like this wasn't okay, I didn't like that, you said this or did this or whatever, it's okay that you made the mistake.
Speaker 1:The important thing is then recognizing okay, I did this, I don't need to sit here and I don't. This person doesn't deserve me having to explain why I did it or what's messed up in my head or experiences that led me to doing it. I just need to say I'm sorry. You didn't deserve that. I didn't even deserve for you to have to explain to me why I did something wrong, but I appreciate it nonetheless and move forward. And then go on your own and try to do the work right and figure out why did I do that, what did I say that for? And figure it out on your own time, and then, unfortunately, just keep doing that every single time, like it's not overnight, you know, it's just if you really want to be a good person who is a true ally to others. That's just what it entails.
Speaker 2:Yes, that reminds me about how, when I first started not until I started Femish, which was February 2022, like two years ago not until then did I start seeking out books and creators and content of the feminist experience from other people's perspectives that aren't like me, whether it's a black woman, or looking at the experience of trans women or looking at the experience of trans women. I considered myself a feminist before that, but all I knew was the white perspective of feminism and the basic story behind the movements, and I started reading these books and listening to audio books and all that stuff. I'm like how did I not know any of this? And it really takes, especially because you're a product of your environment. I'm hoping that school I mean, I went to private school, so that's why there was no access to things like this but just to make that has to be like a conscious thing to seek out somebody else's perspective, because the algorithm is too good, because I don't think it's something that comes natural to us, because of affinity bias, because of, like, wanting to understand our experience and wanting to read more about something that you can relate to, and it's so important to seek out the stories of other people.
Speaker 2:It also reminds me about how, when I talk to classes like undergrad classes, usually as soon as I start talking about femininity and what Femish is about, I can see just the guys in the room, just this kind of like a light goes off in their brain a little bit most of them anyways and you can see they're kind of paying a little bit less attention, and so I always, you know, try to point out that this is something that affects everybody, regardless of you know, sex or gender or whatnot. But then I always end with, even if you're still convinced this doesn't affect you, affect your life you should care, because you should care about the things that are negatively impacting your neighbors and your family and the people around you, and until you understand what someone else is going through, there's no way that you can be a true safe person in this world for them, for the. So yeah, and that's again just. Another great thing about social media is the, is the. Once you start seeking out certain information, certain content, the way the algorithm pushes it to you can be a very good thing in that sense of like.
Speaker 2:I want to see more of this and I'm interacting with more of it. So here you go, here's more of it, because it's an active thing. You have to be active active in seeking out other people's experiences and to fully understand any issue Racism, sexism, homophobia, fat phobia, ableism, just all of the things there's so many ways that they overlap and intertwine and affect each other. It has to be like all level. You know we need the whole sandwich.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before I ask you my last question, I will just add for any women listening who consider themselves a feminist and they are also white, I would strongly encourage you to actually go do your homework on the history of white feminism, because I had a very similar experience. I was always so proud to say I'm a feminist and the fact that I was white was just sort of a side note. And then when I had done all my homework and I realized, ooh, white ladies weren't always the heroes in feminism. It was really actually often opposite, especially during the labor rights movement, and some of them are, quote unquote, feminist pioneering days, and I think that's really important because A I think it's very important to understand that a lot of times, marginalized groups were intentionally left out of the conversation because the white feminists were afraid they and other marginalized groups who did incredible things for the feminist movement, who aren't celebrated or known as much as, like a Gloria Steinem. There are so many women and female feminists who deserve to be known and celebrated just as much as Gloria Steinem, if not more, who are not, and it was very eye-opening as a white feminist to realize, oh okay, there's a lot more to this story than I knew and I'm a huge believer.
Speaker 1:I love history, I'm a huge nerd for history, so I'm a big believer that you have to know your history in order for it not to repeat itself. So if you are someone who proudly is like I'm a feminist and you happen to be white, highly encourage you to go do some historical research on the history of feminism so you really understand comprehensive nature of what you're talking about and identifying with. Because the day I started to understand and unpack intersectional feminism was the day that I saw feminism in a totally new, more modern light that I realized was actually benefiting everyone, not just people that look like me. Yes, 100%, just throwing that in there. Yes, love it. So my final question for you I love to just leave my guests with a loaded question right at the end, looking ahead between all the amazing work you're doing, all the amazing work Femish is doing combined, what are your hopes and aspirations for the future of feminism and gender equity and how does Femish plan to contribute to that evolution?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think one of the main things that has to happen with feminism is actually acknowledging homophobia. It's been a part of, like a tool of the movement for a while now and I think this, the actual acknowledge that it exists and that it's an issue, has to happen. I think we get closer and closer. I think Barbie helps. I think the whole like you know last year that we had of Barbie and Beyonce and Taylor Swift and all of these very feminine things, right, pop music, and I mean Barbie, how can you get more feminine than that? Coming being celebrated from a empowerment, feminist light shows progress. To me. There's still comments made and views that show that. You know, there's still definitely still work to be done. But, number one, I think that femophobia has to be part of the conversation, like 100. I also think we need to redefine what feminine means, and that will take people being comfortable expressing themselves however they want and acting however they want, because I don't think it's a situation of just erasing femininity and masculinity and having everybody be more androgynous. I don't think that's anybody's goal. I don't think there's an issue with identifying as somebody who's feminine-centered or someone who's masculine-centered or somebody who feels like they're both. The issue comes with how those things are treated and policed right. Femininity is not the issue. It's how we treat femininity and the consequences that come along with it and the judgments we make against it. So, allowing people to be comfortable enough and safe enough to explore those options, even just the exploration of it, without fearing for their actual physical safety walking down the street or fear of not being taken seriously at work, that would be major progress.
Speaker 2:I have big dreams of us having our own research team. I have big dreams of us having our own research team. There are people who have their PhDs or are in school who want to work on areas like this, who are looking for jobs, who are looking for projects to work on, and there's so much more research to be done. There's so many things that I would love to do, so many things that I know that Dr Ray Ashley Hoskins still wants to do and to continue that I always look at.
Speaker 2:I love the Geena Davis Institute and you know they focus on gender bias in the media and they do such amazing work. I would love to do something similar focusing on femophobia, because there isn't, you know, a whole institute focusing on that. I'd love to have annual conferences for all of these people, because there's also professors, in addition to researchers and students. There's professors and activists who are all focused on this area as well, and they have nowhere to connect or come together, and I would love to create a space for that annually and have research awards and really give accolades to the people who are doing this work. And so I think those are my big goals and aspirations for Femish and for society a million.
Speaker 1:So this is like I don't even know. Writing the show notes for this is going to be impossible because there are so many great things to take away from this conversation. But I would say strong and feminine are not antonyms.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:I really don't know how we got there, and I'll just throw the last note on there too. Even the idea that men are the protective ones yeah, there is no animal in the wild where you're like, oh, where's daddy bear? Don't go by that cub because daddy bear is going to get you. No, it's always mama bear. And not saying that men can't be protective. But where did we come to the point where women aren't? Yes, we are. They marketed this to us, and there's so many levels of where they've kind of taken what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, and just made decisions not based off of anything, irregardless of cultures who are doing it completely opposite of us and pretending like it has to do with biology, and so we maybe even getting back to. We need to start fresh. Let's erase the board and start learning all over again you say it's not based on anything.
Speaker 1:I would actually argue it was based on ego 100. They wanted to be these traits and feel macho and so they were like this is what it means to be a man, and anything that's not this is inferior. So it's the woman.
Speaker 2:I can agree with that.
Speaker 1:Well, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show and hearing about the amazing work that you and Femish are doing. Please let our guests know where they can connect with you and the organization.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we are on Instagram and TikTok and have a Facebook page All of them. The handle is at thefemishorg. My personal email is samanthaatfemishorg, which anybody could always reach out to me, whether it's for a question or to share an experience, or you want to be part of our digital magazine, volunteer remotely, or we have remote internships as well. There's always room for conversation or support over here at Femmesh, but those are our main contact pages.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and that will also all be in the show notes so you can click down below. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your brilliance with us. I cannot wait to see all of those dreams and aspirations come to light. I will be in the front row screaming and clapping and cheering and saying I was there at the beginning, I'm so happy and proud of you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me on. I'm so excited to be here and thank you for creating space around these conversations, not just with me, but with every other guest and with every workshop you do. It's pulling it apart brick by brick. I love it Got to start somewhere.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much for being part of this week's conversation. For more information and additional resources, be sure to visit rachelimpalacom slash podcast for the complete show notes. And you know the drill make sure to subscribe, leave a review and if you love the podcast, make sure to share it with another working woman in your life. You never know who could use the support. Thank you again for spending this time with me, rachel Impala, in this episode of Working Girl. Until next time, keep breaking barriers, shattering stereotypes and redefining success on your own terms. I'll see you soon.
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