Working Girl
Join us on Working Girl, as we dive deep into the complexities of gender bias in the workplace. Each week, we'll bring you candid conversations with real women sharing their experiences and strategic insights from experts who have been in the trenches.
Whether you’re a fierce feminist already clued into how gender inequality can shove a wrench in your career, or you’re only just starting to spot how those sneaky gender inequality hurdles have been tripping you up, this show offers the validation, support, and tactics you need to help you reclaim your career.
Working Girl
Season 1 (OLD FORMAT) - Standing Up for Yourself in Tech
This episode is part of our first season, which focused on gender bias in the corporate world. The show has since evolved to focus on women on the front lines of social justice.
When the glass ceiling feels more like a concrete barricade, it takes a trailblazer to show us the cracks where the light gets in. Our latest guest, a woman in cybersecurity, has navigated the labyrinth of tech, while championing the cause of women and women of color in the industry. Her journey reveals the resilience required to face gender bias, pay disparities, and the slow trudge towards diversity and inclusion in the corporate world.
Our guest shares an incident where her expertise was unjustly questioned, a stark reminder of the gender assumptions still plaguing the industry. Her story is a rallying cry for male allies to join the fight for equality, and for women in tech to demand their worth, negotiate with conviction, and find solidarity in organizations dedicated to closing the gender gap. She also touches on the transformational role of motherhood and the additional complexities it brings to advocating for gender equality in the workplace.
As we envisage a future rich with women in tech, our guest imparts parting wisdom for the women just getting started: know your value, set firm boundaries, and deploy your unique strengths to foil imposter syndrome.
If you loved this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review. And share it with your fellow working women!
Welcome to Working Girl, your safe space to talk about gender bias in the workplace. I'm your host, rachel Impala, aka the Gender Bias Coach. I've witnessed firsthand the insidious effects of gender bias on women's careers. What's worse, no one is talking about it. That's why my mission is to end the stigma surrounding these conversations and to create a culture of openness and empowerment. It's time for women to stop shouldering these burdens alone and start receiving the validation and support they deserve. So sit back, relax and welcome to the ultimate support group for working women. Hello and welcome to another episode of Working Girl. I am extremely excited for this interview. We have our first tech girly in the house. I cannot wait to hear from her, especially because of all the amazing work she does for girls and women in tech. So, without further ado, please, please, give us a little bit of your story or background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hello, I'm excited to be on this Working Girl episode. Yes, I am a woman in tech. I've been a woman in tech now for a decade over. I am in the cybersecurity industry. I've been leading in cybersecurity partnerships, integrations and working with strategies with some of the small and biggest companies you can name in the world, and it's been quite a pleasure to find my space and community within cybersecurity, because it's not an easy road, definitely for a woman to lead in this space, but I love it. I've created amazing opportunities with companies that I've been a part of and I built my career out.
Speaker 2:It started in sales. I didn't have a tech background. I went to college for communications. I was really trying to be in media and TV and when I got my first job I was like I don't know what I want to do and so I started out at a company doing cybersecurity sales and I moved my way up and throughout the years I got technical and really taught myself the ins and outs of the space. And now the years I got technical and really kind of taught myself the ins and out of the space. And now I'm here in a leadership role leading a team, leading strategy for cybersecurity partnerships and it's been an amazing journey, but it's also been a rough journey, but I wouldn't change it and I'm so excited for the future to come in this world and journey that I'm creating in cyber.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we all know even those of us who may not be in STEM we all know, we all hear, we all read the headlines right that women in STEM are facing a particularly difficult time when it comes to not just gender dynamics. But really, if you're part of any type of marginalized group or, you know, have any sort of identity that is not the hetero, like the cis white person, then it can be quite challenging. And listeners may remember a couple episodes ago we had a scientist and that was one side of STEM that I know a lot of us don't hear from. And I know I haven't heard from your side of STEM because a lot of the words you just said I don't even fully know what they mean. So I already know for sure that you're going to have a lot of interesting takes and experiences that we can learn from.
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely. I am a Black woman in tech and there are not a lot of us, and there's a reason there's not a lot of women in general in technology. It's been a very male-dominated path for years. I mean, a lot of tech companies were created and male-driven and that's just the history of it all. But I think being a part of this show and what you're pushing out there, rachel, is amazing for women to understand. But within tech, the biggest challenge is gender bias no matter what.
Speaker 2:It's been going on for years and it's not really changing that much. There's been an increase in women in technology, but it's still very low. I think with just pathways and having a community of women it helps. But we're fighting the gender gap, we're trying to fight for equal pay, we're not getting those promotions we deserve and we can be low-balled in so many different avenues of the tech industry and I think companies see that women see that that are leading in tech and they're trying to help each other to overcome this obstacle. I will say that now that I've been in it for 12 years, there has been a significant change, but that change is not as improved as I thought it would be by now. But yeah, that's how it's been.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear that all the time. When people hear what I do or what I'm so passionate about when it comes to working women and gender bias, I often get from people not really women, but I often get from people like is that even a problem? It's 2024. Why are you guys complaining about this still, like there are bigger problems? I'm like, well, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not there, right? And I can imagine when you're working in corporations where it is predominantly male, you're basically having that same narrative pushed on you all the time. I guess that it's a lot of trying to advocate for yourself or for your peers and being a good ally, but then you're constantly hitting this brick wall invalidating your experience as a woman in tech.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to really have tough skin and it's almost sad to say that you have to come in tough. You can't just be this kind of just organic, generic person that you're trying to be. You know I've always been a girl's girl. You know I've always been like, hey, you need anything. But when you come into these roles that are very male-driven, you have to have tough skin.
Speaker 2:You're working with men, me being remote. I work remote, I can have the Zoom pictures and I'm in the middle and it's all men. So I'm even uncomfortable virtually. So there's that virtual uncomfortable, you can be virtually uncomfortable. So I'm even uncomfortable virtually. So there's that virtual uncomfortable, like you can be virtually uncomfortable. And I never knew that until I started. Really, when COVID hit and start working virtually, I'm like, oh, I'll feel comfortable at home. But when you see that space within Teams or Zooms or whatever you want and you're still the only one I was starting to realize like, wow, this is no matter. In person, virtual on the phone, you're uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:So I was really trying to figure out ways to make myself feel comfortable going off camera. But you can't. You have to show your face like, hey, everyone show yourself. And then you're going back into that space where you feel what can I do about this? How do I feel safe in this community of men when it's just me? And so you get excited when you see another woman just jump on the call and sometimes it's not someone in leadership. You might have a project manager or an executive assistant. The roles that we are supposed to take in their world are actually dominating and leading in CISO C-level roles and we're doing really great at that. But sometimes it's not always seen. But that's what I've been facing a lot during this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you brought up a really interesting point, because I actually found that, while I faced gender bias throughout my entire career, the times where it hurt the most and had the biggest emotional and mental impact on me was during COVID and during quarantine, when we were suddenly working remote. And I think, if I had to guess a lot of it is probably because, if we're already feeling like we're isolated, we're in a silo, we're going through this on our own and now we're literally on our own, isolated, we're in a silo, we're going through this on our own and now we're literally on our own right, we're just in our room on a call it can feel that much more isolating and hard to find those allies or those resources around you you so I really commend you on being remote all the time and figuring out how to navigate that and still find your people and your allies who will help support you and who you can support Definitely. Yeah. So let's dig in. I know you've got some stories for us. Tell us, where do you want to start?
Speaker 2:tell us where do you want to start? Yeah, you know we can start during COVID. I'll kind of lead into talking about the virtual uncomfortable ways I was feeling at the time. So I was always in an office in the beginning of my career working with people, co-working. We were at our cubicles, at our desks, leading in conference rooms and just having all the fun the normal office antics. But going into COVID and working for tech companies, you're getting on. You have to show your face. You're getting dressed up, you want to have face down, looking great, maybe makeup, and I had to come in and to this new world of Zooms, teams working with a lot of different types of teams, and it was men and a few of us women were trying to figure out how do we feel comfortable talking to these men at certain times in the morning. Because, coming into the tech world of the COVID times, I'll say we were getting comfortable, we were at home, we were trying to be ourselves and figure out what was going on in the world.
Speaker 2:But then there was another world, online with our male counterparts of trying to see how to communicate, and I'll never forget this call I had with. It was another company and getting on a call with another partner and they were like oh, we want to talk to your leadership team. I'm the leader. It's in the email, it's in the header, it's in the subject line I lead the team. Oh, your name. I thought you would be a male, my name can be considered a male name, and so during the time they saw me and they're thinking okay, but you lead this team of technology, you've been in this space for a while, so they're starting to interview me almost in a way, and the call is not an interview. The call is jumping into business and trying to figure out cybersecurity. So already 10 minutes of this call, we're not even discussing business, we're discussing my background.
Speaker 2:And I was so offended because I'm the leader of this space, you're coming to me to work together, and I was the only female on the call, so no one was backing me up, none of the men on my team, none of them on that side to kind of cut in and be like hey, hey, hey, let's cut business. And I felt alone and I never knew I could feel alone virtually. I couldn't cut off my camera, I couldn't just sign off. I had to handle this in a way. So what do I do?
Speaker 2:I'm kind of like at a standstill on this visual Zoom and at that time I just had to say well, I'm the leader of this team. I don't know what you're looking for. I don't know who you want me to grab to add to this call, but let's just start this over and get to business. Oh, okay. Well, there was no apology either. It was just trying to figure out if I'm actually capable of doing the job, and that's been around in my career for quite some time now, and I think other women have faced it in my community. The organizations I'm a part of were constantly fighting the gender gap as well, but that story is something that I've faced online quite a bit of digging into who I am to make sure that I can do my job that I've been doing and it's uncomfortable, it's wrong and I feel that us, as women, we have to kind of stick together and find our male allies to protect us as well within that type of situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's nothing like feeling like you have to prove you're qualified for a role you're already in. It's like clearly I'm qualified, I'm in this role, I'm here, I'm talking to you right now. Clearly somebody at some point thought I was qualified and I just never see that happen to men. I really don't. I don't ever see I've even seen the really great male allies in my career automatically assume that the man that's sitting in the room with another group is the leader. You know, and I'll have to point out why would you assume that? And they'll kind of backpedal like oh, it's because I thought, because they were sitting at the head of the table or or whatever.
Speaker 1:And it's such an interesting dynamic because I just don't understand the purpose. I guess, like when people because I could see some people challenging this story like well, you don't know if it was bias, you know, maybe they just were really curious about your background. But to my point, I was saying like you're there so you're clearly qualified, it's just a full sentence, you know. Like it's dumbfounding, honestly, how did you navigate that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to fight anyone that would ask that question, I'd be like no one else on my team, like my solutions architect, everyone under me. They weren't questioned. So it would also be that question of what about everyone else? And navigating? It is coming in prepared. And us, as women, we have to be even more prepared when we come into these certain roles, because we are going to be tested, and it's horrible that we are. But I've been tested in so many ways where it's just like, oh, okay, I see what you're doing here, You're doing that. And then I'm so prepared to the point where like, oh, you have an answer for everything. It's just like you're ready to go.
Speaker 2:I have to be or you're going to put me in that bubble as oh well, you're, you know, kind of knew you wouldn't be able to do that. And that's just how we're being overlooked. As women, we're facing these huge challenges and then within technical companies, a lot of the time they're pushing women into non-technical roles Like hey, you can do marketing, hey, you can do programs. Like well, no, actually I have a background in computer science and I can lead and build a computer. Well, you know so-and-so's doing that. So just navigating myself.
Speaker 2:At that time, I'll say the first time I didn't navigate it the right way. If I can go back in time, I would have shut it down. I wouldn't have given him the space and opportunity to keep questioning me. I think I was just so shocked and unprepared. But now that I've faced that numerous times, I now shut it down and say, hey, this is who I am and I shouldn't have to introduce myself all the time because the men on the call, they didn't have to do that. So there's that equal portion of us as women coming in.
Speaker 2:I'll even dive into a situation where I was at a tech conference. I walked in with my team of engineers they're all men and it's just me and this woman comes up. She's like, oh my goodness, you're not part of staff, right? And I was like, no, I'm part of the company, me too. Let's just stick together because we're the only ones and just hearing that type of in the tech world, we're so excited just to see each other. That's how it is on Zoom too, when they bring in a woman or anybody. I'm just so excited to see them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely you made me think of something actually when you're talking about having to always be prepared. Anyone who's ever reported to me will know that something I always preach going to any meeting, any conversation in the workplace is always prepare for everything you think they could ask you say to you. I think it's applicable to the work you're doing, but also to the political personnel dynamics. It's unfortunate that I think as women we would feel the need to prepare even further for those kind of dynamics. But I do think it really helps, because I'd much rather be over prepared for that kind of situation and have the confidence to move through it than not Because to your point at the time you didn't have that confidence in the moment. I think a lot of women, especially if they're newer in their careers or they're really trying to prove themselves in an industry that's not for them, that confidence can really be lacking, especially if your environment is not fueling any confidence. So those moments can be really jarring. I think almost every experience of bias I've had until I really knew what bias was that was the exact reaction I would always have Just kind of deer in the headlights, taken off guard, because then it almost fuels that imposter syndrome, because then it makes you stumble. You're like, oh wait, how do I pivot back to the work, to what's important? Now I'm having to prove myself. It throws you off your game and all around it's just so unfortunate because now whatever confidence that woman may have had starting that conversation has just been knocked down like too many pegs, and I hate it but really highly recommend what you had said about just trying to prepare for what could be thrown at. You had said about just trying to prepare for what could be thrown at you. I also loved what you said about the woman coming up to you at the conference.
Speaker 1:I think in creative, which is what I'm in, 50% of graduates are women, but only 3% of women nationwide are creative directors. And whenever people tell me that there's no bias in creative, I always say, okay, well, like, show me you know, prove it to me that there isn't. And they'll say, look at all these women. And the last time someone said that to me it was referencing a department I was in and the women that they were referencing were, in fact, all the project managers and I said, oh, so the support role that you've pigeonholed them into? Okay, okay, I see why you're saying.
Speaker 1:That proves there's no bias, full sarcasm applied. It can be so hard to find those women, but I'm glad that woman, the conference went up to you and I hope that any woman would feel the confidence or just find that eagerness within you that you want that support and don't be afraid to go up to that other woman and ask for that kind of camaraderie or that bond, like you don't have to say hey, oh my gosh, we're the only women Can we be friends? But just making a point to be that person that goes up and creates that friendship or that alliance, whether it's for a job or it's for a two-day conference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because definitely, in the tech space, as women, I believe there should not be any mean girl energy at all. We need each other so much. Once we get into the space of leadership, once we finally make it to that level of hiring or making decisions, bring in more women. Tech conferences will show you the truth of who's in the room. If anyone's like no, there's no problem, there's women in the industry, the tech conferences show it all. Tons of men at the booths, tons of men. You'll see a few women and they're usually in those same roles. And I'm not knocking those roles. Those roles are amazing.
Speaker 2:But I feel within the community of women in tech, there are so many other areas that we can accomplish, we can thrive in, that are not brought to our attention because of the gatekeeping or of just not the awareness that is brought to those roles that we can dominate in as well. And I had to find my own journey into the cybersecurity path and finding that community of women that has helped my career, because we all face the same thing. I think every discussion I have with colleagues or women tech organizations I'm a part of, we always have to say, oh, we're the women in tech. We have to say it, because there's not a lot and finding, I feel, like, the group of allies within men, because there's a lot of men that are helping or being that ally and pushing the fact like, or being that ally and pushing the fact like, hey, we need to bring awareness to this issue. So I'm not knocking it, but I feel, with just most of my experience, the interaction of it all with women in tech, it's all the biggest challenges will always be gender bias and I don't know how long it's going to take for the percentages to change.
Speaker 2:If you go and look at the surveys, the statistics, the bar graphs online, they do not move. Those needles are like just a little, maybe. Oh, it's 2023. I'm like, wow, that almost looks like 2015. So it's just bringing that awareness and finding that group of women to really push it and just take that step. Because I'll say this yeah, I did not have the confidence in the past. I was scared, I'm still scared now, but I'm prepared. So scared and prepared is a little bit different. I think a lot of us, as women in this space, we are facing imposter syndrome. We're facing that community of let me just go to a non-technical role and be safe and not push it too much and put myself out there. We just have to be a little bit more brave and take those steps.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and speaking of how the charts aren't really moving or showing major progress, I mean I don't want to sound like a broken record because I think I've mentioned it on every single episode now, but there's a reason. The UN says that gender equality is at least 300 years away. So when people say, oh, it's 2024. Like, why are we still talking about this? Like we're still talking about it because it's still there, it's still a problem, and if you're not experiencing it or not seeing it, you should probably be asking more questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can go into some more stories of you know just what I faced in my career and kind of the reason why I became a part of an organization to help women fight the gender gap in technology. And it was really because, when I was starting out more into getting into the leadership roles of some of the companies that I was facing, I started realizing during the interview process of the type of questions I was asked. I was at one company and I went up against one of my colleagues. He was a male and he got the role over me. I had way better background, I will say. I had finished all the projects faster, more equipped, everything. But he was selected and at that time I was like, oh, okay, yes, he deserved it. Then I found out a few things of. He dropped that role. He didn't want to do it, he quit.
Speaker 2:And then I went back and interviewed for it, coming in really prepared, as a woman had to come in super prepared, and I still didn't get it. And I started asking questions because I was told like, oh, you're meant for this role, you're meant for this role. And then I was told, oh, so-and-so, has a little bit more experience, he's a little bit older. So then age got into it. Age person was, you know, been here a little bit longer. I had just as much experience, almost the same background, same age. So it was just kind of, where's the truth in this, is it true and I'm not here to knock anyone of a position that can be given but when you share reason and it doesn't make sense, it's almost making you question. Okay, I know the real reason here Because I was pushed towards this role to do it by leaders, leaders, and to not get it still coming in prepared, getting praise, no bad feedback.
Speaker 2:It was uncomfortable and facing other situations in my career where understanding the salary range, salary transparency, is really coming out. Now You're able to kind of see what you're given now and people are really talking about the money they're making, and're able to kind of see what you're given now and people are really talking about the money they're making and that used to be kind of hidden and oh, don't talk about that. But now it's coming out and I've seen some salaries where I'm on the same level and I'm like, huh, that doesn't make sense, I am doing the same thing. And that's when I started wanting to join the organizations I'm a part of, to build this space where we can speak up and fight for salaries, promotion, community awareness. Because, within the stories and challenges that I faced in my career within tech and it's constantly put out there by tech influencers, by tech companies Everyone knows you can even Google your next tech company and research everything that women are facing when it comes to salary, when it comes to gender bias. It's all the same story and I just want to be able.
Speaker 2:My biggest thing that I'm doing out there is bringing awareness to it and letting women know you can negotiate, understand what's in your region, like what state you're living in, kind of looking at those laws. I had to really start digging deep because it was starting to get really unfair for me on my side. Just the experience I have had and the success I've driven in companies, I really wanted to take that space in a community and help women thrive on that. So those are just a few things I faced and also I would probably jump into the next one, but being a mom, I'll go into the story of maternity leave and how old your children are. That's a whole other monster, but yeah how old your children are.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other monster. But yeah, that's. Yeah, I definitely cannot wait to get into the mom conversation. I did have one question, though, about your story at the beginning. So you're talking about how your leaders had been pushing you to go for this role. I'm curious are they the same ones who didn't give you the role, Like were they the deciding factor?
Speaker 2:No, they were not the deciding factor. So this role had a lot of leaders that saw my success and said, oh, you should go for this, we're going to put your name out there. So just having that backup of very strong stakeholders to show that I'm capable over someone that had no stakeholders pushing them, it was just kind of awkward to me getting almost SVP level, c level executives saying, hey, she will thrive in this for someone who didn't have that same cheerleading squad on their team.
Speaker 2:So it was kind of different and it happened to me twice and I was at first I thought it was like maybe I didn't do good in the interview. You know I was second guessing myself. I was like, no, I said everything right, I shared about the growth, I shared about the value proposition, like I had a whole presentation. And the crazy thing is the guy came in with nothing. He was just talking, I showed presentation, I showed results, I showed the bigger picture Impressive. And no, still didn't. So yeah, that's when I was starting to say I'm like, oh, I'm coming in too prepared. Maybe I should be like him, but if I did that, it would still be the same outcome. Should be like him, and if I did, that there would still not be.
Speaker 1:It would still be the same outcome. So yeah, and I think then you'd really be kicking yourself afterwards, cause then if you didn't get it, I know we as women would 100% blame ourselves. Like well, I knew I should have been prepared and I wasn't. That's so wild. So did you ever feel comfortable asking those stakeholders who had pushed and motivated you to do it? Did you ever ask them what happened?
Speaker 2:So what did they say they were shocked. Actually, one was actually extremely upset, to the point where I think it went on top. But yeah, they were like, huh, that doesn't make any sense and in my mind I'm like I don't know, I think I get it on my end. So to have them feel that way made me feel better, because that made me think I was less crazy at the time because I'm like man, it's validating. Yeah, I'm like, okay, they agree. So that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that really helped me understand my place in that role, in that space and it really helped me understand my career moving forward and how I have to move. It gave me that motivation to approach things differently or to ask different questions and to understand that this is what it comes with and not to accept it but to kind of fight it. You have to fight it and you have to speak up, because I just wanted to create a space for someone who's going to come in behind me as a woman. So that's what I'm still doing now. So I'm trying to break through those barriers and fight it, because you have to. It's tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, I can only imagine like you said I mean at least hearing from the stakeholders like the shock and confusion from them had to be so validating. At the same time, their shock doesn't come with the pay increase or the new title. So it's like you have to kind of like it somewhat soothes you, but at the same time you're like well, I'm still stuck with where I'm at, and I see that all the time. And it's one thing I really try to advocate for when I talk to companies, when they ask like what can we do better?
Speaker 1:And I think it's like taking a lot of the subjectivity out of the hiring and promotion practices right, when there's a lot of room for subjectivity and there's not a lot of people being held accountable for why decisions are being made or why certain people are being moved forward or not being moved forward. It allows people to move in a way that is not necessarily aligned with even the company values, but just isn't aligned with good morals and ethics. It allows people to make choices that are very biased, and the really talented, amazing people are always the ones that get hit with that burden of just having to kind of take it on the chin and just like well, there's always next time. And I can't imagine how many amazing people companies have lost because they would say well, there's always next time, you can always try again. And those people are like I'm not trying again, you know, I'll just go where.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be valued, exactly, yeah, and I think anyone getting into the tech industry or enhancing themselves into tech in any role that you're interviewing for ask those questions on culture and environment. I think that's the biggest thing I've been doing now of what are you doing for the women in the space. What organizations are you putting together? When you hear more about what organizations are doing to help bring in more women, I get so excited because, okay, you understand what's going on.
Speaker 2:You're on the same wavelength as myself and I appreciate it, because I think every industry is facing some type of gender bias, no matter what it is with what we go through. But I will say, just as technology is enhancing, ai is coming full front into all the tech realms and that is going to be very interesting on both sides where now we are going to have to fight even more as women, leading into this new I'll call it AI gender bias, because that's a whole different realm of what we have to think as women of any race. So I've just been seeing the changes, I've been seeing the outcomes and just preparing myself and helping others navigate through that and we'll see what comes, but I think with just the better awareness that we have now, I think there's going to be growth and a better outcome eventually.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, there's certainly enough people who are passionate about it and doing everything they can. I know you and I both are huge advocates in this area and who are actually trying to really do the work to move that needle and help make progress. There are so many other women and allies who are also trying to do the same and hopefully some of you listening you feel compelled to also get into that space and advocate. There's always room for more women speaking out about it. I think sometimes it can be scary to speak out about issues. I remember when I first started promoting online for my gender bias coaching and a lot of my colleagues coming up to me and like, oh my gosh, you know you're so brave. And I remember thinking like am I? You know, I'm just talking about something that's real, that's factual, that has data behind it, because I try to be very data driven. It made me sad. I totally understood where they were coming from, because that's the whole point of this podcast is to break that taboo of talking about it. But it's so sad that so many women feel like they have to go through these things alone or with a few women they have on their side at work, when you know there are a lot of women. If we all just banded together and started really fighting for true progress and change, we could make a lot of progress and we'll get there.
Speaker 1:I think it can be really scary to step out of that comfort zone and step into the light of speaking truth to power and talking about issues that are very ingrained in society, especially when your paycheck is tied to it, when the very thing you want to speak against is the way you're paying your bills and I didn't intend for it to be a great segue, but that leans into a great segue.
Speaker 1:So I was going to say, especially for working moms, the stakes are so much higher to be loud and outspoken about these issues when we're technically meant to be protected but we're not truly, truly protected from being able to talk about these things and complain and get our voices heard. So a lot of times my clients who are working moms will just say, like Rachel, I hear you, I agree with everything you're saying. There's just no way at my company I could ever say those things to anyone, because they'll let me go and you know I'm a single mom or my family depends on my income to survive and you just can't argue with that. To survive, and you just can't argue with that. It makes it so much more complex when people's actual livelihoods are tied to the very thing that's holding them back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely agree, and I think there's a way we can professionally put out awareness, like with me myself. I'm part of organizations where I'm fighting the gender gap. I'm speaking on this professionally but in a firm manner where I'm heard. I'm yourself, but there's no right or wrong of finding that safe space and working with your company or even going to your HR teams and understanding, like, what am I able to talk about? How can I feel comfortable? And I think it's also within motherhood. I'm a new mom, I have a 16 month old, so yeah, and he's amazing.
Speaker 2:But just like with motherhood, you know, before, you know, when I was pregnant, I was researching all the mom stuff and trying to figure out how to be a mom and I don't feel like there's enough real discussions of motherhood, of the hard part, and it's almost like the gender bias discussions and everyone's too scared to speak on it.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of women are too scared to speak on how hard motherhood is and it needs to be discussed. Make that awareness, help someone understand to prepare themselves because being a working mom, being a if you're a wife, you're working almost so many jobs, wearing so many hats and also handling what you're dealing with at the workplace. So you have to come home and kind of deal with so much. You go to pick up your kid from daycare or you may have to work at home with your child if they're sick. My kid has faced, I think, six ear infections where I'm working and handling my child, dealing with so much. And then you have to also think about women are still going through postpartum phases. They are also going through this realm of grief of they're at a new phase of their life. The mom me is totally different from the non-mom.
Speaker 2:I mean, and I want women to understand in this community that we have like speak up, just share it in a not in a harsh way. But there's nothing wrong with saying this is hard, I need help. What can we do? Like speak up, because it is hard. Saying this is hard, I need help. What can we do? Like speak up, because it is hard.
Speaker 2:All of this is hard and I think what COVID taught me during that isolation, that time of the world shutting down. Life is short and I think with what, we don't know what to expect, and there's been a lot of layoffs right now within the workforce, not even just tech. People are getting laid off. People are losing their jobs because corporations are going through different avenues. We have to help each other as a community, because I've seen women that have children and then get laid off after they come off maternity leave and they don't have a job anymore. They come off maternity leave and they don't have a job anymore. So it's really scary out here for just the working mom and then fighting for everything else. So we have to speak up or you're going to lose your mind even more, because we're already losing our minds with everything. There's ways to speak on this the right way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I assure you, I think we often feel like we're the only ones going through what we're going through, and then it just takes one other person to make you feel validated. And seen the number of women who will message me since the podcast has come out and have said oh my God, I heard so-and-so's story and I had never heard a similar story like that and I've went through the same thing and I hear stuff like that all the time and I'll always tell them. See, I'm telling you we're all going through it. We're in different industries, we're at different points in our careers. Some are mothers, some are not, some are working at the office, some are remote.
Speaker 1:The circumstances may be different, but at our core we share more in common than not and I would bet that even the women that you might consider your frenemy or that you might, you know, beef with a little bit in the workplace, I guarantee you, if you really boil down to like just the aspects of being a working woman, you'd actually probably have a lot more in common than you think. And the more we get those conversations going, the more that, to your point, we just say oh my god, I need help, I'm struggling, I can't do it all, like you're over that superwoman trope and you're like I need help. Just asking for that lifeline or extending your hand could be the very thing that that other woman needed to hear, because she may also feel just as desperate and just having you reach out might be the thing that makes her realize she's not alone and in fact, I guarantee you it will be the thing. And I promise you there has not been a single woman that I've had that kind of interaction with that didn't work out to be an amazing allyship and source of support. Now, are they always the same level of support? Are we always going to be best friends? No, you don't have to become best friends out of it, but just being able to have a support system in the workplace is game changing, like it truly can make the most drastic difference in your career.
Speaker 1:Okay, so as we wrap up, I have started asking the guests this, and I really want to hear from you as well, the guests this, and I really want to hear from you as well what advice would you give to young women in your niche, in your field industry, who are starting to really hit these bias barriers and they don't know what to do. What advice would you give them or give your former self?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, if I can go back in time, I wish I could have said no more. I didn't say no enough in starting out my career. I think I always said yes to have that male domination, you know, overpowering and just scared to not agree. It's okay to say no and the more I've have started to say no in my career, I've started to succeed. Because when you say yes to too much, I'll say with anyone you can be overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:You can say yes to the wrong thing, where you put yourself in a situation where you're stuck. And I think I got stuck in my career in the beginning where I didn't see my worth and I was just saying yes, yes, yes, because I wanted to impress or fill this worth from a certain type of community that I still wasn't getting the outcome I deserved. So I wanted to find my worth. So I said I'm going to go after everything I'm scared of and I'm going to start saying no. I wish I could give my younger self that advice. You don't have to do that. You don't have to say yes, you can say no.
Speaker 1:It's okay.
Speaker 2:And professionally no or professionally yes, it's just however you want to drive that. But I wish, and I give advice to anyone going into the career of whatever avenue tech it doesn't matter. Whatever you're doing, you can say no and feel way better at the end of the day that you said no, and your calendar will be managed better. So, yeah, that would be my advice.
Speaker 1:And no is a full sentence. Yes, I know that can be really hard, but you don't have to say no because blah, blah, blah or no, but I can do that. You don't have to feel the need to overextend just because you're saying no. Say no, own it, sit on it, let it sit there, it's okay. Nothing's going to explode, I promise you. And then, lastly, what do you envision and hope for for the women in your field in the future?
Speaker 2:I envision a community of thriving executive leaders really changing the world of technology. We're having a cyberspace of amazing products led by women-owned companies. We're bringing in more women engineers. The graphs are changing online, when there's a significant increase. Women are starting to go to college for certain areas of computer and thriving in that, and I hope to see a change. And that's what I wish for, because I feel right now a lot of us may be scared to step into the world of tech because everyone thinks technical sounds so hard, but there's so many different areas where a lot of our expertise and what we go to school for.
Speaker 2:I went to school for communications. I was trying to be on TV and tech has a lot of speaking engagements. So find your area of expertise and just go for it. Don't be scared, and I hope that changes in the future for all, where more women are jumping into this field, giving it a try in so many different areas of technology. When people ask me, how do I get into tech, I'm always like what part, what area do you want to get into, because there's so much. Do your research, you'll find something. But that's my advice.
Speaker 1:But that's my advice, and I would add too for women who might think like, oh, that sounds like a lot or really difficult. It may not seem like it because when you're looking at something like tech, you think of like the hard skills, right, like you think of the actual stuff you may learn in school. But what you may not think about and you should think about is that there are a lot of other strengths or soft skills you may be really good at. That will actually translate over really really well. Not everyone is born being able to do technical things right out of the gate. Being able to do technical things right out of the gate they all had to learn. It was certain strengths they had that enabled them to become really good at that when they applied it to those skill sets.
Speaker 1:And so let's say, for example, I have an amazing project manager on my team and she's incredible. I literally can't sing her praises enough and I often will try to give her more higher level projects to manage and sometimes she'll push back Like I think that's out of my wheelhouse, and so I'll have to point out to her but you're really good at strategy, and she'll say no, no, I'm not, and I'm like. That's exactly what you're doing every day when you're problem solving, when you're figuring out a solution that meets like 12 different people's needs and you're moving like 12 different other issues around in order to find a solution that works for everyone and will have long-term success. That's strategy. So actually, you're uniquely qualified for this. And suddenly she was like oh my god, you're so right, I didn't even think of it that way. I just thought I didn't get trained in this, so I can't do that.
Speaker 1:So if you are feeling that bit of imposter syndrome or doubt that you could be capable, I encourage you to really think about what you're strong at and how you could apply that to something like tech, because you can always learn the hard skills.
Speaker 1:You can always enroll in a program or go to school or take a class, but you need those soft skills and that other side of your brain to even be able to do the hard skills. So don't let the fear of the unknown get to you and trust that you have what it takes to do those things. And you may not. I know for a fact I couldn't do tech, but I own that. But I know that I have a mind that's perfect for another thing, and so just know that you are brilliant the way you are and that whatever strengths you have, wherever you are at, whatever point you are at in your life, they are almost always applicable to some other industry that you may not even realize. And, on that note, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciated having this conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, this was amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being part of this week's conversation. For more information and additional resources, be sure to visit rachelandpalacom slash podcast for the complete show notes. And you know the drill make sure to subscribe, leave a review and if you love the podcast, make sure to share it with another working woman in your life. You never know who could use the support. Thank you again for spending this time with me, rachel Impala, in this episode of Working Girl. Until next time, keep breaking barriers, shattering stereotypes and redefining success on your own terms. I'll see you soon.
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